Tornado

Always easier with the lights on...

 

I bow to superior railway knowledge. Doing it everyday obviously doesn't count.

 

Why do LNER (or LNER designed) pacifics cause so much argement within enthusiasts? If the extra lights were been added to an older loco then some of the moaning might be justified.

 

I don't know that it has anything to do with superior or inferior railway knowledge.

They've fitted the lights to rule out problems with poor lighting in the darkness, to make the crew's job easier when coupling up. It's up to the trust how they spend the covenators money, and to be quite frank as a covenator, I have absolutely no problem with lights being put on the tender to that end. It's sensible, useful, and there is precedent for it being fitted on other engines.

There seems to be a great degree of machismo in your statements which is frankly of no concern to anyone working in or around the locomotive in question.

 

see everyone is in the playground at Nat Pres again, come on guys, arguing about bloody lights to aid in coupling, as SAC has said its up to the trust what they do with the loco, if your gonna put your hand in your pockets and support it then maybe you can have a good old moan about it, basically put up or shut up, grow up lads, the info on this forum is awsome, but the pettyness is starting to wear thin now,

rant over now play nice
Matt

 

It's pettiness

 

Bulleid tenders had shunters lamps illuminating the coupling area from new.
But we musn't compare Tornado with a Bulleid in any way must we?

 

Easy - ones got a reliable boiler and the other . . . . . .

 

The Bulleid boiler is one of the most efficient steam locomotive boilers, ever.
The locomotives are powerful and efficient, on the correctly matched work, because of a lovely front end.
They represent the pinnacle of steam locomotive development in this country, the BR standards were a perpetuation of Stanier LMS practice.
I am biased, but these statements are based on experience of maintaining and running the things!

 

According to D.W. Winkworth in his book, Bulleid Pacifics, they were not so reliable when originally built. He notes on page 22 of chapter one, "Design and Mechanical features":

"Trouble [also] came in the form of cracks in the boiler plates owing to excessive contraction, and to avoid this twelve hours had to be allowed to elapse after an engine came on shed before boilers could be washed out. Similarly cracks in the all welded steel firebox plates were hastened by cooling off too quickly".

He also notes on page 48 of chapter four, entitled "How bad were these engines?" that the average mileage between major repairs of the Bulleid Pacifics in excess of 10,000 miles less than the Western Region Castle, and Eastern Region Peppercorn A1 (75,687 miles compared to 87,424 for the Castle and heading the list, 93,363 for the A1).

Tornado's all welded steel boiler does seem to have remarkable similarities to the problems of the Bulleid Merchant Navy boilers, although in perspective not having suffered as bad incidents as those recorded by C.J. Allen, in his book British Pacific Locomotives. He also confirms the 12 hours required for cooling down between running onto shed, and boiler washouts, with more severe cases given in general terms on page 168 of said book:

"Many troubles had to be overcome before the welded boilers settled down to give reliable service. In the earliest days staff carrying out repairs inside the fireboxes from time to time were alarmed by loud reports; these had been caused by the sudden development of cracks. Some of the most vulnerable points have been the attachment of the thermic siphons to the firebox crown and the welding of their lower ends into the tubeplate; other cracks have developed from stay-holes and also in the backplate below the firehole door".

Cecil J.Allen continues:

"It was soon found that excessive contraction was the cause, due to cold water having been used to wash out a hot boiler; for this reason it is now an instruction that each Pacific must be allowed to stand for at least twelve hours after the end of its day's duty, and that all hot ash must be removed from the combustion chamber at the rear end of the barrel, before washing out begins".

The more I have read up on Bulleid boilers, the more I feel Tornado's boiler troubles are extremely similar to that first experienced with the Bulleid Pacifics. Whereas here, it seems to be felt that the thermic siphons are somewhere at the root cause of the Bulleid troubles, this cannot be so with Tornado as she has none. It is Cecil J.Allen's next point that interests me most.

On page 168, he mentions the topic of corrosion.

"A [second] trouble which had to be mastered was corrosion. It first showed itself by leaking stays; but a more serious discovery was that a side wrapper plate of the firebox of one of the first ten Merchant Navy Pacifics, which to date had run 169,000 miles, was beginning to bulge. Investigation showed that corrosion had taken place to such an extent as to reduce the thickness of the steel from 3/8 in. to 1/4 in. The firebox was then taken out, and corrosion was found all around the interior, especially at the back end of the crownplate and around and between the syphons, though it was reassuring that none of the welded seams had been attacked. There was nothing wrong with the steel; the trouble lay with the feed water".

He then goes on to describe the TIA water treatment, which I am still getting my head round. I knew that water supplies from different parts of the country will have different levels of acidity, but it is the level of other compounds and chemicals that were/are in the different water supplies around the country that astound me. Whilst I am sure water is treated before it goes in the boiler of any steam locomotive on the mainline, I do wonder if more extreme levels of water treatment could help extend the life of boilers beyond the average lives of in and around 7 years between major repairs we see currently.

My apologies for the lengthy post: it was interesting to compare the plight of Tornado's boiler to the historical records of the Bulleids and see the contrasts and similarities that appear.

 

Perhaps the A1 trust should seriously consider changing tornados name to storm in a teacup. I have never honestly seen so many people get so upset about anything as pathetically trivial as a bloody little lamp!

 

So, all steel boilers need to allowed to cool for a few days before draining and washing out and must use water treatment properly. It all sounds so easy!

 

Thanks for posting the information on Bullied Pacifics.Very interesting .It does look like Tornado is having the same problems .Why did they go for this boiler ?was it down ti cost?

 

Latest news at www.a1steam.com

 

Not exactly news but a marketing oportunity of a book ??

No bad thing I suppose. . .

 

Yep its so easy, shame they had to spend 50K to discover what's been in the public domain for years and years - boiler treatment correctly applied is essential on steel fireboxed locos. The 2nd batch of Bulleid pacifics had to have fireboxes replaced in the early 1950's since they where 'not subjected to strict water treatment regime' according to one source.

Put's all the hogwash about 'thermal cycles' causing the problems into context me thinks. . . .

 

Looks like you're implying that Tornado's boiler has not had the correct boiler treatment then, that right?

Maybe we should have a new thread for all the anti Tornado people on here or rename this one as there seems to be a few people with a downer against the loco and/or the A1 trust. :behindsofa:

Dave B

 

Or perhaps we can have a new thread for those that want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend there is not a problem - they can go on there and discuss "lights" and "what colour it is" and other such trivia.

Me - I would much prefer a reasoned debate of what has occurred and how to avoid big repair bills in the future, and that's not knocking the trust its trying to help them learn from the past - simples

 

Surely the answer is to only run her in Scotland drinking water from Loch Katrine the finest water supply known to loco engineers

Joking aside, it should be possible these days to have constant water monitoring that would automatically adjust the water treatment. Expensive maybe but worth it in the long run.

Lordy