Flying Scotsman single chimney poll

I shall get tarred and feathered on here I know, but the decision to turn out the loco in BR Green is a total kick in the teeth for the many members of the general public who contributed to the purchase and restoration of this loco. To them, you can be pretty sure that Flying Scotsman is LNER Apple Green - the livery that the machine wearing the name has carried for the vast majority of its career and certainly throughout the entire time that it was such a by-word for a classic steam locomotive.

If the NRM are that worried about authenticity, then they should have restored the exterior appearance to that of a single chimney A1/A3 - and I don't buy the story that the loco is unsafe to use without the smoke deflectors it had for the last 3 or so years of its 40 year working life (and almost none of its 40 year mainline steam career).

At times, our hobby seems intent on giving the impression we exist largely to satisfy ourselves and see the wider public merely as a source of cash!

Unbelievable!

Steven

 

I can't understand why some people are getting so heated up over Flying Scotsman, what’s important is that she will very soon now be back in steam, paint can be changed, but how much better would it be if next time round she has a new single chimney and blast pipe, so enabling the NRM to put her out in the correct mechanical condition for any of the LNER liveries, and BR blue, so those who say, it has to be in Apple green as 4472,,then help to fund the casting and machining of a new single chimney and blastpipe, thats the only real way that it can be done, and then there would be no problem from anyone.

 

Well, if nothing else, this has proved once and for all that there's no such thing as a decision that pleases everyone in railway preservation!


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Is my memory playing tricks or wasn't there a promise made through Steam Railway that, if sufficient money was raised to fit 4472 with vacuum brakes, then the loco would visit those Railways with teak stock in order to run on the rakes of Teak coaches in the first year after restoration?

Can I ask what point there would be in keeping that promise now that the loco is to be in 1960 to 1963 condition - I realise that Teak coaches weren't painted instantly when recorded Railway history started on 1st January 1948 but I am pretty sure there would be no full rakes by 1960!

I am equally sure that every piece of appeal promotional material would bear a picture of 4472 in LNER Apple Green.

Are those who contributed under either scenario going to feel they are getting what they donated to get?

Steven

 

i also agree with steven (Bean-counter).

if any famous loco was thought of by the general public as having a particular 'colour' and external appearance it would be 'Flying Scotsman' in LNER apple green with single chimney and without smoke deflectors.

what was the point of spending a huge sum of money restoring and fitting an A3 boiler if the loco was not going to be finished and put back into it's 'classic' guise? what is the point of correcting all the Marchington era defects and not also remove the double chimney and smoke deflectors from the same era?

another poor decision concerning the loco by the NRM.

cheers,
julian

 

I really and sincerely think, that a very large majority of the british public ( who are the owners of this loco) are unaware of subtleties like single chimneys or double chimneys, and if by chance they notice its a different shade of green they will have assumed the previous shade they saw it in had faded or it was a bad print or photo* That is not a facetious comment but how the rest of the world outside the enthusiasts arena sees it. Argue all you like, they simply wont notice and don't care. They will however be in awe and wonder, and little boys will gawp open mouthed if this thing comes roaring past them at 50, 60 70 mph. To get it to that state, in any colour, is the most important decision and if that means adding or keeping features that enables fast main line running then fine - do it.

Smoke deflectors is probably however a different factor. They alter the appearance of a loco dramatically especially they way they were implemented on the A3, aesthetically truly ugly and ill proportioned in every way, clearly looking like a hastily designed and implemented afterthought ( a bodge job!) destroying the lines and profile of the loco. Even given that however as a member of the British public I shall accept and applaud it with or without blinkers.

*I think the only colour the great British public care about on steam locos, is on the A4. They know what an A4 looks like (nothing comes close), in their eyes every A4 is Mallard, and Mallard was famous in Garter Blue.

 

Remember - it's the "bums on seats" factor that will recoup some of the money that has been spent on Scotsman. If you're sitting in a carriage listening to the Gresley three-cylinder beat, does it really matter what colour the engine is painted?

I'm happy with BR green if it's going to have the double chimney and smoke defletcors. I'd have been happy with apple green if it was going to be running with a single chimney and no smoke deflectors. I didn't like its look in the Marchington era (i.e. smoke deflectors and double chimney in apple green livery) but when a friend of mine kindly offered me two complimentary tickets for a VSOE Christmas dining trip which he couldn't use, I deliberately chose a steam-hauled trip behind 4472 rather than a diesel-hauled trip - in other words. my aesthetic objections rapidly disappeared! It was a fantastic day out - a strong climb from the Shalford water stop, a good dash down the back from Gomshall and I really loved the bit from East Croydon to Balham when we were just another train on the fast line as far as the signalmen were concerned - oh and the food was wonderful!

I'm just pleased that after one of the most protracted and expensive overhauls in preservation history, the sole representative of a very successful and well-loved class of loco will at last be running again before too long.

 

Not really - I was 12, and there were plenty of pictures of it lner green then! I might have seen a manor, but dad told me it was flying Scotsman..and that's what it said on the name plate on the side...even a 12 year old kid can tell when it's the same thing painted a different colour!!

Maybe fitting a single chimney etc would have pushed the time it takes to finish the job?

 

Well the decision has been made and we will all have to live with it or love it for a couple of years. Perhaps there just wasn't the will to bugger about with chimneys and smoke deflectors at this time or theres a gents agreement that it never runs in the same colours as Tornado!
With the amount of work and money gone into the machine she will be around for (fingers crossed) a couple of decades which is plenty of time to consider and fund an effective single chimney that doesn't require smoke deflectors, Paint it Apple green, Blue, Black etc
BR green doesn't look bad as long as its lined out and kept very clean. Lets hope they get the right crest...

 

I think counting a considerable number of years dismantled without any chimney etc. as part of the period of "with double chimney and smoke deflectors", especially when deciding what the public expect, isn't really on!

What I think would be very interesting to know is why the change of initial livery?

I am pretty sure that it was stated that the loco would wear BR Green but not at first. That has now been changed. Is it because of the authenticity angle, in which case the lcoo will never wear any other livery without a rebuild back to A3 or A1 condition, or has there been some sort of sponsorship deal as part of funding the final phase of work? makes somewhat of a difference.

It will be interesting to see which catches the public imagination most - an Apple Green Tornado or a BR Green Flying Scotsman. I do know that we once traipsed all the way to Llangollen for the day, and on arrival, being met by this BR Green loco with smoke deflectors, I was firmly told "that's not Flying Scotsman!"

Steven

 

I thought the A1/A2 style deflectors were fitted in BR days. As an LNER A3 'Humorist' had several smoke deflecting arrangements of the small wing type at or near the top of the smokebox. Most, if not none of which solved the problem of smoke drifting down the boiler-side and obscuring the driver's view.

 

The "member of the public" who was with me - or does their view not count?

Steven

 

hi anthony,

the only 'story' the recent decision tells in my opinion is 'this is how an iconic loco's good looks and appearance were spoilt later on' in the Marchington era fitting a double chimney and very ugly smoke deflectors. i am sure part of this decision (in the Marchington era) was due to apparently a cracked single chimney plus boring out the cylinders and fitting a higher pressure boiler. these latter modifications (cylinder bores enlarged and the higher pressure boiler) have now been reversed, so why not also remove the smoke deflectors and double chimney? in the overall cost of the current restoration a new single chimney etc wont cost too much.

if GWR KING 6023 can have a new chimney and Jos Koopman draughting fitted recently then i am sure the NRM could do the same!

cheers,
julian

 

Child, adult, or ignoramus about steam locomotives as the evidence of a pair of quite large nameplates was apparently ignored?

 

Also remember that the NRM is part of the SMG, and it is the latter organisation that has had to foot the bill of the restoration in straitened circumstances since the balloon went up over the actual condition of the locomotive. As such, the last thing they will want to do is allow people like us to dictate spending policy, which is fair enough.

That said, if people are really THAT hung up about the livery decision, then by all means obtain permission from the NRM to set up a group to raise the extra £50k or so to fund the single chimney conversion themselves. However despite the froth, I suspect that there will be relatively few who would actually dig into their pockets for such a scheme, and the appetite for it to run again is overwhelming. I'm therefore waiting to be proved wrong on this one...

 

Can feel a ' If a trust was set up to fund the development and fitting of a new FS Single Chimney how much would you pledge' poll coming on

 

Adult - and perfectly capable of reading but you are missing the point (deliberately? - given you are resorting to trying to belittle the holder of this opinion).

This was the first impression made by the loco - that in that condition, without a close examination or expert knowledge, it was "just another" big green steam loco. The holder of the view had an expectation of what Flying Scotsman was (and was familiar enough with a number of steam locos) and what it looked like and wasn't seeing something that matched that - and I would suggest that will be a wider held reaction that "oh, isn't that wonderfully authentic" - much as some may hate it, we do have to let non-enthusiasts in to our world - we could never pay the bills without them!

Steven

 

My point is that a specific appeal was made to fund fitting vacuum brakes - without which there wouldn't have been many visits to any heritage railway - on the basis of it enabling 4472 (as was then expected to be restored) to haul yes, 2 Teak sets and an undertaking was given that the visits to make that possible would happen in a given timescale. The point behind that appeal is lost, as most certainly is the timescale, by this comparatively late change. Had the appeal been made to make all heritage line visits easier, so be it and there would be no grounds for complaint but anyone who contributed to that part of the appeal may feel a little aggrieved at this decision.

Steven

 

So that it could run without Smoke Deflectors and more authentically wear earlier period liveries... ?

 

Done...