Flying Scotsman

Oh, I am sorry! I thought this was a discussion forum - people make points, others make counter points - so right of reply only acceptable when agreeing with certain posters, is it?

How you close an account on here..........................

 

Do you feel your argument is so weak that you have to resort to unwarranted slurs? I thought from your anecdote that it was probable that your companion was a child. It has been my experience that dogmatic assertions that ignore the evidence are frequently made by children.

 

Well, you could say that a large part of the story of the locomotive is its wearing of what folk call inauthentic liveries and combinations of features. And that whole early preservation era is most certainly a story worth telling. I'd be very wary of reading too much into Mr Coulls' statement, especially as policy can always be changed: its not a law of the Medes and Persians...

 

But surely the money raised for the vacuum brakes isn't wasted if the NRM decide to do limited preserved line visits and run with vacuum braked stock on the mainline.

Personally I prefer her as 4472 in Apple Green but again would prefer a return to the single chimney as it opens up more livery options (BR Apple Green as E103 or 60103 or Express Blue would be choices I'd like to see) but I realise the extra cost of that on an already expensive overhaul so don't mind seeing her back in BR Green (I won't say Brunswick Green).

At the end of the day the most important thing is that she is running and earning money, regardless of what she looks like.

 

The thing is, BR dark green livery is perfectly authentic for the locomotive. She is in her final form now with a restored A3 boiler, double chimney and smoke deflectors. BR Green is authentic, no doubt of that.

The tender is the stumbling block. As one of the original beaded corridor tenders, it's LNER apple green livery if paired with an A3 - and only with one without superheater headers and with the larger cab cut outs.

So the clear and sensible compromise is to paint the tender dark green. These tenders would have been dark green in BR days anyway, albeit behind A4 Pacifics (as Scotsman's one was of course). So is it entirely inauthentic? Perhaps the combination is "wrong" for 60103 as she was in everyday service with British Railways, but the livery is correct for the locomotive and tender separately.

But again - who cares? It's been so long since she steamed. Let's enjoy that.

Perhaps the NRM wouldn't mind steaming in wartime black whilst she's being run in though, as previously previously decided…new can of worms?

 

Of course the ultimate answer to this hot potato is to scrap the beast and be done with it, considering that it is in such an unauthentic state. What's more that statement in a more general form could be levelled at all preserved railways or any other heritage items, as they usually have been superseded by newer equipment. Or rended redundant on account of the job/industry they were used for being changed/closed, i.e. the majority of coal mines closing. Or the industry going over to say road transport.

 

Does this mean 34051 will be repainted into Malachite Green?

 

There's some petty and pathetic posts in this thread. I'm just happy that she'll soon be working again. BR green will look good with the loco's front end in its current form but I'd have lost no sleep if the NRM had stuck with plans to keep 4472 and LNER green. Perfection for me would be to see her as I first saw her back in 1964 but I'm a realist. Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Did any GN non corridor tenders survive? The type with the coal rails?

 

Pretty aggressive "how dare they" sort of comment.

followed by

And your comments against the adult who made the comment aren't a slur? (Actually, they are pretty insulting and condescending to children as well - I have heard far more kids correcting parents making generalisations about steam locos than the other way round).

I'm not making an argument - I am stating a fact as to something which happened. My argument is that it will happen again in future - and far more frequently than if the loco was restored as 4472.

So if anyone is showing signs of needing to use insults and aggresion due to a lack of proper arguments (in a situation where "facts is facts" and there isn't really an argument except as to how individuals feel they affect what is to come), it ain't me!

Steven

 

Paint. Its such a controverisal topic in the world of railways. Certainly it matters as it does greatly go towards the idea of creating an engines appearance and thus character. Flying Scotsman is known for being an LNER engine, and has a great part of its history devoted to times when it carried that livery. Mainly because of that steam engines are throught to be Apple green. Tornado being done in the livery was definately piggy-backing on the Flying Scotsman image, when its covernentors wanting irronically BR Green.

While the running of the engine is needing the deflectors and double chimney, previously the engine had coupled this with running in LNER Apple Green. Its noticable that a lot of the NRM material had the engine shown in this colour, but for many that is the appearance most remember it by - and why not keep it. Preservation is about the engine working today. Not an engine working like 50 years ago. TPWS, OTMR, even little yellow flashes will all be fitted yet no one is arguing about all this and its only the latter youd see if you looked at the engine. Such a combination of operation and popular appearance would have worked fine, but as usual only the enthusiats would have grumbled over its ad hoc appearance.

Instead for once the NRM is going on the idea of accuracy. BR Green matches the boiler, chimneys and deflectors. As such given the historical accuracy they can point to the job finally being completed properly and accuratley, especially when having to justify the cost. Flying Scotsman is an impressive bit of kit and as a result will now cement a good reputation for the NRM when the engine is returned to steam under the careful management of Mr Riley, who no doubt will work out a comprehensive and detailed maintenance programme to ensure reliability too. For running like this, accurately, reliably and publically will enhance the reputation of the NRM after all the damage sufffered by the start of the process to overhaul Scotsman. Its important for the NRM to get this right. They can point to lessons learned, to working with partners for getting a good return on the money spent. Flying Scotsman can be seen to be overhauled accurately and methodically returned to traffic in its best condition for decades to then show to the public what an A3 is and that in this guise Flying Scotsman is more accuarte as 60103 rather than 4472. The NRM team is right when it wants to educate and inform, no doubt many programmes and articles will feature the engine upon its return and subsequent visits when it tours. Further operation on the mainline with partners such as WCRC will see the engine matching that companies prefered appearance. The sight of a BR Green A3 with maroon stock on the mainline will be something to savour, especially if you have Vac brakes.

Yes it could go Apple Green, it probably will revert to doing so yet keep the chimney and deflectors - eventually. But the NRM and those on the project rightly want to be seen to be doing this right and aiming for the best return to traffic appearance and then to ensure reliablility and a successful reputation follows. Now is not the time to bemoan their efforts. Its time to say, "Job done. Congratulations."

 

If thats true, the branch to Battersby might prove very helpful for mileage accumulation for reliability rather than Pickering. Can Scotsman get into Whitby, or does the tender foul up that idea?

 

No, the Cartazzi probably will though.

 

For me I was 8. I'd seen big locos before but not 'Scotsman'. Dad took us all to Carnforth to see 4472 work a special. We watched from the bridge as it set out in pouring rain with 13-on without a hint of a slip and it was magnificent, bright green paint piercing the gloom. Perhaps the only disappointment for me was that it did not have its second tender like in the picture of it leaving Kings Cross we had on the wall in the shed because the second tender made it even more 'special'........

It is difficult to argue against the NRM's decision given its current form with the double chimney. Keep it in this form for long enough and to future generations perhaps the real 'Scotsman' will be as 60103 in BR green, but I think it's a shame that (possibly still) the most famous 'real' steam locomotive in the world is to be presented in the form it had during the darkest years of its career and (nearly) the end of British steam.

I mentioned 'real' steam loco above because of course 'Thomas' is the most famous locomotive. To those who say the colour doesn't matter, try painting Thomas midnight blue, changing his number to 60001 and giving him a beard and glasses, then see if anyone notices or not......

I share the pleasure of others that Scotsman is to return, and in excellent condition thanks to the NRM's determination when at times it would have been easier to stuff and mount it in 4472 guise . The working option is surely the better one and I look forward to seeing it out on the mainline sometime, but when it goes past I will have to work hard to match it to that memory etched in my mind from years ago. Nostalgia, in this case at least, ain't what it used to be.

Jon

 

No Gresley LNER eight wheel tenders other than the seven behind the six A4s and the single A3 survive. The frames of an eighth of course survive as Bittern's water carrier.

 

Was Tornados an entirely new build?

 

I have a feeling that when she emerges into main line service, the A3 is going to be very busy and will generate the kind of following we saw as 'the Tornado effect.' All the pain, suffering, froth and criticism of the NRM will melt away in a celebration of a job completed. The locomotive will draw crowds of adoring fans wherever she goes

 

Tornado's tender is not a Gresley eight wheel tender. It is a Peppercorn derivative of Thompson's, which of course was a derivative of Gresley's versions of the non-corridor eight wheel tender.

And yes, Tornado's was built all new.

 

Wrong. The chime whistle was off A4 Golden Eagle.