If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

WCRC Licence Suspended

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by 5944, Apr 2, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,861
    Likes Received:
    9,238
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Tobacco manufacturing
    Location:
    Kendal
    At the end of the day this is a sad day for steam on the rails and could be a sign of things to come .
     
  2. banburysaint

    banburysaint Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    368
    Any operator who takes on a former WC tour/ vehicles will need to have processes that exist and can be demonstrated through an auditable trail that the WC vehicles and train crew comply with their safety certificate. I would expect WC will struggle to find operators willing and able to do this work. WC have to focus all their energies on complying with the requirements of their license otherwise they will have no business in the long term. It will be a significant piece of work which will take time, outside expertise and must be sustained.
     
    agalpin and Sheff like this.
  3. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    11,049
    Likes Received:
    4,319
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No, wrong, WCRC have been suspended because of a catalogue of occurrences, and the fact that the train crew were found to be at fault by overriding the safety systems (there for that reason) was the last straw!

    As for others commenting about a bad day for steam....... I think not....... its about the working practices of a train operator, of most forms of traction, and their crews working ethics, or lack of, and the hierarchy's support of this - WCRC have been sailing close to the wind for along time, and now that wind has caught up......... this announcement will have all TOC's looking at what they do, and how to do things better to keep on the right side of NR in the future - at the end of the day, only good for the charter industry be it steam or diesel can come of this, and should WCRC regain its permissions will be a completely different beast, fingers crossed, a chastened one. should they come back from this............ time will tell.
     
  4. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    It is to be hoped that someone with an interest recognises the opportunity in the problem.
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    For the RAIB to know/state that "as the driver did not acknowledge this warning within 2.7 seconds, the AWS system on the locomotive automatically applied the train’s brakes." says that, either the OTMR was working or they had an observer on board with a stopwatch. 34067, in common with other AWS fitted steam locos, has a valve adjacent to the driver, which enables him to isolate this (and the TPWS) If the driver fails to acknowledge an AWS warning in quite a short time, the brakes will be applied. It is actually quite easy to fail to do this on a steam loco - you might be winding the reverser back, controlling a slip, doing any number of things when the AWS operates with the intended consequence that the train will come to a stand. ( It's happened to me in the past.) You can't recover the situation by acknowledging the AWS late and, in such circumstances drivers would screw down the isolation valve to keep the train moving and under his control. Against the rules but was quite common. However, times change and such actions are now heavily sat upon, if known about. The OTMR will pick this up if it is checked and doing this will satisfy point 1 of the N.R. requirements:
    "1. Introduce an effective, risk-based driver monitoring regime that includes proactively using analysis of On Train Data Recorderdownloads for a representative and sufficient sample of diagrams;"
    Fitting tamper proof lead seals to the valve and monitoring its integrity will satisfy point 2
    "2. Demonstrate there is in place an effective and secure system of tamper-evident seals for train protectionisolator cocks on all relevant traction;"
    Point 3 is largely about training and introducing the discipline of making sure that drivers follow the rules and recording any instances of such events.
    "3. Implement arrangements to accurately record, monitor and manage all train protectionactivations (including Automatic WarningSystem and Train Protectionand WarningSystem), and provide clear instructions to all train crew, including support crew, on the actions expected of them report and respond to train protectionactivation;"

    Implementing these three requirements isn't going to be a huge job and I suspect that these recent events will go a long way to killing off the old habit that I referred to above. Anyone who does it is now fully aware of the consequences.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  6. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    2,758
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not wrong, Firstly you are agreeing with me that WCR actions previously played a part, and they have no been suspended because of what the crew did, but clearly from the NR statement, because of how they were dealing with it. The Network rail statement gives the reasons, and it doesn't say "its the train crews fault" And nor will they until the RAIB report is issued.
     
  7. green five

    green five Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,596
    Likes Received:
    2,242
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I agree with what you have said but I fear the reports on the BBC site will do some harm to the reputation of future ML steam operations. If the papers get hold of it what will they do for the reputation? WCRC will have a lot to answer for for the damage done to the Railtour business.
     
    Standard 4MT likes this.
  8. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    2,758
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That's damage to Their business.
     
  9. Steam gets in your eyes

    Steam gets in your eyes New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    15
    Network Rail are in charge of an increasingly congested railway which requires stringent rules for safe usage.
    If a train operating company is allegedly shown to be in contravention of those rules then steps must be taken.
    I have enjoyed on many occasions the rail tours that West Coast have operated, and I hope may continue to operate such rail tours. But if are shown by RAIB to have been compromising safety in their operation, then they need to be reprimanded, as do any other operator on the network.
     
  10. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,736
    Likes Received:
    1,107
    Location:
    Oxford
    Yes, but... because of WCRC's near-monopoly position in the steam charter market, damage to WCRC's reputation means damage to mainline steam's reputation, and damage to WCRC's steam business means damage to the steam tours business.
     
    green five likes this.
  11. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    2,758
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And it means damage to WCRC. Lets examine that monopoly for one moment. Why has that situation occurred? Its occurred because no-one else could offer the same round the country crews and resources, DBS more or less gave up, WCRC have been a major part of the expansion of the availability of steam charters. Its clear they do some things very well indeed. Its also patently clear they can do some things ridiculously badly. But if WCRC collapse so do steam charters, and if excursions collapse so does WCRC. Chicken and egg
     
    huochemi likes this.
  12. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,736
    Likes Received:
    1,107
    Location:
    Oxford
    Agreed, sorting out points 1-3 shouldn't be difficult. It's points 4-7, especially point 7, that are going to test the resolve of WCRC's owners and senior managers.
     
  13. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    2,758
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Its not difficult with some focus

    Point 4
    4. Establish a time-bound plan to recommence and complete implementation of the actions
    arising from Network Rail’s review of WCR’s Safety Management System in January 2015;

    All NR is asking for a a plan, with timescales for milestones and completion, does not have to be by May,

    Point 5
    5. Review and implement appropriate changes to company processes to be able to demonstrate
    that all safety and operational information is received and positively acknowledged by train
    drivers;

    Thats just a process to implement, but this is one that NR were concerned about after the Oulton Hall fire incident, so its clear nothing has been done - You can see why NR are getting narked.

    Point 6
    Demonstrate by independent assurance that there is an effective system for managing access
    to traction footplates/cabs in traffic, with clear communication protocols;

    Sounds like unauthorised people on the footplate, someone with no PTS perhaps. Again an easy process

    Point 7
    Clarify the safety accountabilities for each Director and independently review the effectiveness
    of the company’s safety assurance and governance arrangements to demonstrate that those
    accountabilities are discharged.

    Point 7 is easy. Its management speak for ownership and accountability of the safety plan all the way to the top. They want, in effect director ownership, not (from memory) WCRC saying 'its ok the safety manager is the only bloke who needs to be responsibly for the safety plan"
     
  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,068
    Likes Received:
    20,778
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Have just stumbled over the postponement of the Wansbeck and my personal financial loss associated with it - advance rail fares etc. Have also picked up on the WCR debacle that triggered the problem and have now trawled my way through this thread.

    The reason why this Forum didn't allow debate of the Wootton Bassett SPAD was that it was blindingly obvious from the preliminary RAIB report that there was a serious concern over the incident and it would just have been unhelpful to speculate. We are, I assume, a group of people that have sympathies with all the people associated directly and indirectly with main line steam and sometimes it helps them more to say nothing rather than fuel the rumour mill.

    It is now even more clear than it was last year that Network Rail has an ongoing concern about West Coast Railways. Something happened the other week that has added to that concern and prompted the action today. I have to say that as someone who travels frequently on WCR charters I would also like to be reassured that everything is in place to ensure that there is nothing untoward in the way that their trains are run. If NR is worried, I take it on trust that they are right to be.

    What I am saying is that as just one other person on this Forum - i.e. with no Mod hat off - I refuse to speculate about the SPAD or West Coast operating procedures because I have no first hand knowledge of either. My personal view is that we watch this space and hope for the best.
     
    agalpin likes this.
  15. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    DBS drivers almost certain to throw the toys out the pram at the idea of over 65, zero hours drivers coming in and taking work from them, annoys me how people have a thing against WCRC for such contracts, how exactly do they expect a TOC whos core work is very irregular charter work to function ?, DBS have regular freight flows to allow certain hours, this is unworkable when charter demand comes in peaks and troughs depending on the time of the year.
     
  16. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    One solution would be the compulsory employment of NR pilotmen on the footplate- expensive, but potentially necessary. I have sometimes wondered how WCRC sign their crews for the sheer variety of routes they cover. Most TOCs make drivers learn three routes and leave it at that.

    I have also booked on the 'Wansbeck', but luckily only had a drive into York to worry about. As such I do empathise with those who have paid for trains and hotels, but based on the seriousness of the current situation, I don't think its worth pursuing a hobby at the expense of safety- and I say that even though I'm also booked on the 'Buxton Spa Express' and VT's 'White Rose'.

    I consider myelf a fairly good customer of the mainline steam scene of late, but I stand by my argument. I feel deeply let down by an organisation that has been given many chances to sort itself out, and each time has taken it upon itself to renege on any progress it makes. There is red tape and red tape, but when you start to cut red tape that has been in place since the mid-1850s, then there is something wrong.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
    oddsocks, Sheff and green five like this.
  17. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    1,240
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon or in a brake KD to BH
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    NR probably dont have appropriately qualified staff to act as pilotmen as they are infrastructure related. Any pilotmen / conductors would need to come from another operator
     
    Neil_Scott likes this.
  18. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,068
    Likes Received:
    20,778
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I believe that the operating procedures of DBS may be different from those of WCR. No reason, of course, why they should be identical but these are the kind of details about which people on NP will know nothing although I guess they are germane to the whole sorry matter. Meanwhile all we can do is sit and hope that there is no collateral damage.
     
  19. JohnMc

    JohnMc New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    220
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Preston
    Not wishing to compound, agitate or antagonise all the doom and gloom comments about steam main line operation, as has been pointed out by a few contributors, I have to agree with some that it is the management systems that is the main focus for NR.

    Whether it’s an electronic or paper based system, and how it is communicated, read and understood by staff, could be the issue.

    The driver of the train will have been a very experienced driver, with route knowledge, and would not have taken action to jeopardise his train. So there could be operational reasons why the SPAD happened, which the RAIB will report on.

    WCRC seem to be confident that they will be able to respond to NRs action points within a short period of time. Maybe with an interim response, to allow NR to lift the suspension, that could allow WCRC to operate, but under certain sanctions, for their overall business.

    Another TOC? Who – WCRC as a TOC operated approx. 300 steam charters in 2014, with DBS operating 50. There is no alternative TOC who can just conjure up at least 100 experienced train crews, plus the operational and depot staff required, and gains the necessary right to operate as a TOC.

    With WCRC operating a large number of the steam charters, over the last 20 years, thousands of travellers have enjoyed the adventure of going to a nice destination for a day out on the national network, behind a steam engine - safely.

    Enthusiasts, mums, dads, children, have all enjoyed watching the train go by, and the romance of steam has rolled on – and long may it last with WCRC – and DBS; as the primary steam operation TOCs

    Reading some of the NP contributors, it is disappointed to see that some seem to have come out of the woodwork to poor scorn on WCRC. As contributors we are all entitled to our own opinions, but on this subject we really should be supporting WCRC during this challenging time.

    I feel there is renaissance in steam charters in 2015, with more steam charters planned, some by ScotRail - promoting the romance of steam; even WCRC expanding their own steam charters, so lets hope that the issue between NR/WCRC is resolved quickly.
     
  20. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    A disappointing statement that glosses over the fact that a serious accident could have occurred on March 7- this is most certainly a time for reflection. I'm not pouring scorn at all- I wholeheartedly support a WCRC that willingly complies with all regulations laid out by the infrastructure maintainer- if it was the latter at fault, then I'd naturally expect NR to receive criticism. However, this situation has been brewing for at least the last four years as the steam market has been increasingly concentrated into fewer hands.

    We all know that on an increasingly busy railway network, there's little room for error- as Sir Herbert Walker said of the 1927 Riverhead (Sevenoaks) disaster, 'accidents don't happen by accident'. Therefore, there are reasons for the approach taken by NR, both highly evident in the case of March 7, and underlying in the case of the letter, and whether mechanical or because of human error, they need to be addressed sooner rather than later.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
    oddsocks, green five and Wenlock like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page