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Tongaat Sugar Bagnalls

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by Dumphrey, May 28, 2010.

  1. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

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    During last December, on the Kerr Stuart Wren @ Aberystwyth thread, a question about the Tongaat Sugar Bagnalls arose. Whilst most of the info discussed was correct, some of it didn’t seem to quite fit and some questions were left unanswered. I have ferreted around and, with quite a bit of help, think I now have the story reasonably complete although there are a few points that ought to be cleared up if the info is still available.

    There are 4 of the locos in UK. Three with Graeme Walton Binns undergoing restoration at Cargo Fleet:

    2287 (1926) Sinembe
    2627 (1940) A Boulle
    2819 (1946) Charles Whytock

    and one with Graham Lees at Statfold Barn:

    2820 (1946)
    Currently wearing the name plates from 2374(1929) Isibutu, subsequently renamed Tongaat.
    It appears that when Bernard Latham arranged for the loco to be shipped to UK (presumably for Knebworth), they wanted to keep the plates it was wearing - Robert Armstrong - and not wanting to supply it without plates sent the Isibutu plates which were redundant and not required. This loco was originally named Egolomi.
    The Egolomi name was transferred to Barclay 0-4-2T 1459 (1915). This was acquired when Tongaat took over Umhloti Valley Sugar and is now with the Sandstone Estate.

    I am unsure what happened to 2287 as the name Sinembe was transferred to 2522 (1935) previously named Simpola and is now believed to be residing with Butcher Estates of Houston, Texas. Nothing appears to be known of this loco since it went to USA. If anyone does know of its state, location etc., I and, I suspect, others would like to know.

    There were two of the locos plinthed in South Africa: one at the swimming pool at Tongaat believed to be 2647 (1940) and another in Bulwar Park, Durban which was carrying the name Tongaat but the number 2342 which is Mona. Whether or not these identifications are correct and if they are still in existence isn’t known as this information dates back to the 1970s. If anyone has info, or access to any, it would be good to know which they were and if they are still there.
    I have seen a reference to 2342 (1928), Mona, being at Inchaga S.A. I don’t know if that refers to the above or another. Again any clarification would be extremely useful.

    Another theory, supported by some otherwise unrelated info, is that 2471 (1932), Wewe, was donated for conversion to a diesel loco. In 1958 a South African agent placed an order for a Self Changing Gears 4 speed epicyclic gearbox, final drive and a set of prop drive-shafts and coupling rods. Whilst the agent concerned was not the official Bagnall agent, they had been placing orders for Bagnall parts.
    In 1963 all the Bagnalls were present except for Wewe.

    After the closure of the Tongaat system, which was the first of the large South African sugar mills to move over to road transport, the stock was acquired by Reynolds Bros Ltd., apart from the plinthed items, and moved to Sezela and Umtwalumi Valley but by 1970 they were reported as lined up out of use.
    One of the problems in identifying these locos is that cabs, tanks and boilers etc. were often swapped around. The only true way of establishing these locos would be to check all the dimensions and the numbers stamped on all the constituent parts. Any volunteers!!?

    No. Year Name renamed Fate
    1800 1906 Tongaat Scrapped
    1837 1907 Success Scrapped 1948
    1929 1910 Repeat Scrapped
    2287 1926 Sinembe under restoration, Cargo Fleet
    2342 1928 Mona ??
    2374 1929 Isibutu Tongaat ??
    2471 1932 Wewe converted to diesel ??
    2479 1933 Tongaat plinthed S.A. ??
    2522 1935 Simpola Sinembe USA
    2599 1939 W J Mirlees ??
    2627 1940 A Boulle under restoration, Cargo Fleet
    2647 1941 Edward Saunders plinthed S.A. ?? see above
    2819 1946 Charles Whytock under restoration, Cargo Fleet
    2820 1946 Egolomi Robert Armstrong at Statfold Barn as Isibutu

    All 4-4-0T except 1800 2-4-0T

    Whilst this is not the entire story, I hope it clarifies the position as known at the present. I would welcome any further clarification and if anybody has knowledge of potential contacts in South Africa, I would welcome the opportunity to contact then as to the status of those locos believed to be still there.

    One final note of possible interest concerns the bull head boilers and their fireboxes with which these and other Bagnalls were fitted. These fireboxes have frequently been the subject of negative comments around the UK preservation scene. A report on the Tongaat locos, by the managing director of Bagnalls, Mr WA Smyth, following a visit to South Africa in 1954, notes that all the Tongaat locos had trouble with cracked throatplates and boiler rings. It was suggested that in future they should offer conventional steel fireboxes and not the bull head type and expected an order for a further loco. This was not forthcoming.

    Ian
     
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  2. fatbob

    fatbob Member

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    Ian

    We have checked for numbers and certainly the motion is stamped 2820 on Isibutu. When the loco is next stripped we will look in all the usually inaccessable places!


    Another element to throw in is that the boiler is numbered 27438 of 1939. Do you know which loco carried that originally? It would seem that based on your list above only 2599 was built in that year so the most likely candidate unless it was a replacement boiler for one of the older batch?

    Henry
    Statfold Barn Railway
     
  3. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

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    Hi Henry

    I can only tell you of the past comments (1979) of Allan Baker and Bernard Latham.

    AB:
    "One locomotive was fortunate enough to return to this country, due to the efforts of our Chairman. This engine, generally described (for reasons I know not) as ISIBUTU is WGB 2820; this works number seems to be stamped all over her - should she not be ROBERT ARMSTRONG, or better still EGOLOMI?"
    The chairman of the Industrial Locomotive Society at that time was Bernard Latham.

    JBL (one month later):
    "I have the South African Government boiler report for this loco., but it only identifies the boiler number - 30635."

    I don't think that this throws much light onthe scene as another listing I have gives 2820's boiler number as 27438.
    As a comparison 27831 was dated 1951 so JBS's boiler 30635 was much later and may have been used and then taken for another loco. Things got chopped and changed a lot at Tongaat. Heaven knows what happened when the locos were at Sezela. The Reynold's Bros were well known for harbouring old locos and may well have done a lot of pirating to keep things going.
    However if the majority of parts are stamped 2820 as per Allan Baker's comment then we must be certain which loco yours is.

    Ian
     
  4. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

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    As a belated follow up to this thread, does anyone have any news of progress on the three ex-Tongaat Bagnalls at Cargo Fleet - and does Graeme Walton Binns ever hold open days?
    It's an awfully long trip for me these days but I do have relations within a reasonably comfortable distance.

    Ian
     
  5. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Hi Ian

    Don't know about open days but I was sent some time ago a photo of the missing bagnall in America, it was under cover with an ex 2ft gauge SAR bogie coach but it looks like it has been there some time.

    I should also have said that some time ago the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway was offered all three of Graeme Walton Binns locos for use in Devon, but due to problems he had else where at the time, his offer was refused.

    May be one day we shall see them working somewhere.

    Colin
     
  6. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Just got another question does anyone know how long Graeme Walton Binns has had these locos? as I do like the looks of them and I was wondering if anyone has the full story about them.

    Regards

    Colin
     
  7. Sparky

    Sparky New Member

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    Two of the locos were at WHR Porthmadog for a while in the 1990s but were removed as terms for their use could not be agreed. It must be said that both were in a terrible state and looking over them probably the only parts that could be re-used were the wheelsets, cylinders and motion. Everything above the frames was scrap and even the frames themselves would need a lot of work. One boiler was so thin that hitting it with a ballpein hammer left a dent!
    Interestingly, when the locos were removed I talked to one of the movers who was apparently from a firm in Middlesborough(?) who normally did traction engines. He reckoned that they'd have the loco back running within the year. When I asked about the state of the boiler his reply was that they'd build up the thickness of metal with spray weld!!!!:wacko:
    I did see photos of the third loco which was stored indoors and this looked in a lot better condition than the other two which had been plinthed and in one case had started to be cut up. I also had a play on Isibutu when it came to Porthmadog: there have been comments about the marine fireboxes on these Bagnalls clogging up with ash but I had no problems with it, just the troubles with the regulator which was on backwards!

    S.
     
  8. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Have sent you a message Ian
     
  9. Buzzard

    Buzzard New Member

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    I thought it was time to post an update on the surviving 6 Tongaat 4-4-0Ts.
    Charles Whytock is now operational at the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway- see photo below taken on 9th May 2015:
    P1130578.JPG
     
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  10. Buzzard

    Buzzard New Member

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    Sinembe and A Boulle are nearing completion in Middlesbrough- Sinembe just needs a whistle and A Boulle final painting. Photo below taken 9th April 2014; Sinembe is in red livery. P1120070.JPG
     
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  11. Buzzard

    Buzzard New Member

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    Isibutu (in reality, Robert Armstrong and originally Egolomi) is operational at the Statfold Barn Railway- photo taken Sept 2014 P1130228.JPG
     
  12. Buzzard

    Buzzard New Member

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    Mona is in very poor condition but survives in South Africa. I'm not sure who took the photo I've been sent, so apologies for not giving a credit to the photographer. Mona 001.jpg
     
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  13. Buzzard

    Buzzard New Member

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    And finally there is Simpola in the USA- so far I haven't tracked down a photo- does anybody have one?
     
  14. Liz Runciman

    Liz Runciman New Member

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    A Boulle (Arthur Boulle) was my grandfather; he was the factory manager of the sugar mill at Tongaat. He died in 1932. We lived on the farm 'Egolomi' and Wewe and Isibutu and Sinembe were neighbouring farms (sugar estates). These locos were part of my childhood, they came to our farms to pick up the cut cane. All the locos had names and as children, we would love to identify them as they came past.
     
  15. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    What a lovely story to have descendents of the original person the locos were named after still interested enough to look in to history.
     
  16. Buzzard

    Buzzard New Member

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    Great to hear from a descendent of the factory manager after which A Boulle is named. I attach a better photo of the engine from April 2014.
    Last year at the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway I met a Mrs Cairns who I believe had been the Secretary to a former Factory Manager at Tongaat, unfortunately after the closure of the railway there.
    If you have access to any photos of the Tongaat Sugar Railway in action I would love to see them- very few are known to exist. P1120071.JPG
     
  17. Brigid Monkhouse

    Brigid Monkhouse New Member

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    I am Liz Runciman's sister and took our Mother some years ago to a site in Gloucestershire I think to see one of the locos being restored. This recent research came about as my 8 year old granddaughter wanted to know about my childhood. Having mentioned the little trains that ran through our farm Egolomi, and how when we used to go for walks we would carry a younger sibling on our backs balancing on the tracks over culverts, I googled to find some pictures of the locos that used these tracks. How wonderful that these steam trains have been rescued - as I am resident in the UK I will at some stage take my grandchildren to see/have a ride in one of them!
     
  18. Sinembe

    Sinembe New Member

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    I am the son of Graeme Walton Binns and you are welcome to come and see Sinembe and A Boulle if you are every in the vicinity of Middlesbrough ! My father has a passion for restoring industrial steam engines and has made numerous visits to South Africa over the last 30 years to visit friends. He spent several years trying to locate ex Bagnall steam engines at Tongaat in the late 80's and successfully located Sinembe, A.Boulle and Charles Wytock, all in a very sorry state ! After several visits / letter writing to the Sugar Mill owners he managed to persuade them to sell the loco's and they were repatriated via container ship in the late 80's / early nighties. After several years on the Welsh Highland Railway they were moved to Cargo Fleet, Middlesbrough for restoration. Restoring these loco's has been his passion for the last 15 years and he was originally a 2 man team for many years so progress was slow. Over the years his team grew and he now has a team of 6-8 volunteers who meet every Tuesday to restore the engines. I spent many hours as a youngster painting the loco's and assembled Charles Wytock's eccentric straps because I was so small, only I could fit under the frames. Happy Days !!!! Charles Wytock was finished 2 years ago and he decided to sell it to fund restoration of another engine on the Llangollen Railway. She is now on the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway owned by a member my father took an instant liking to and he trusted to look after her. Sinembe is now finished (owned by myself) and A.Boulle is progressing rapidly and will be completed in 6-12 months time. My father will be pleased to know the descendants of A Boulle have shown an interest in his steam engine namesake and that he has done his bit to preserve a little part of South African Tongaat history !
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  19. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    What is the plan for Sinembe now completed? And how about A Boulle? Great looking locos.
     
  20. Liz Runciman

    Liz Runciman New Member

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