42424 - New Build Fowler Tank

I'm afraid I just don't think the Stanier version is as appealing for a new build project, we already have a very (visually) similar locomotive in NCC no 4, and even a passing resemblance in the NRM's Stanier tank. The Fowler version is better looking, more historically interesting, and from what I read above more popular with crews, and open to a wider range of liveries. I'm a die hard BR black man, but the thought of a Fowler version in maroon with large letters hauling the SVR's LMS rake really does sound good!

Personally I do hope the Trust does reconsider, I'd love to get involved, but a Stanier version just doesn't light my fire as much (so to speak)!

 

I know I said before about a spare set of sidesheets but, would the price of a new spectacle plate, cab and bunker assembly be prohibitive ? I for one don't think so....

 

For the sake of a livery change that's a rather unrealistic amount of plate work to have cluttering up a shed that hasn't been built yet either

 

Quick question: why was the cab design changed?

 

I presume for a better forward view?

 

The original cabs were draughty and not popular with crews. I suspect that those that want one won't be those who have to crew it!

 

More importantly for crews, am I right in assuming the originals had rocking grates & hopper ashpans? Should be incoporated in any new build, whether they had them originally or not!
I too prefer the original cab.

Steve, not as draughty as a tender engine!

 

What about when limited to 25mph though? A cab that has a reputation for being draughty at speed may be perfectly acceptable under heritage line conditions.

(And anyway, since when did an uncomfortable cab make a loco unpopular with enthusiasts in modern times **cough** Dukedog **cough** )

Tom

 

On that basis FR no.20 will need a bit of alteration along with lots of Churchward locos.

 

You mean like this Steve:




Cheers

Alan

 

Original cabs were reportedly draughty when working bunker first at speed. As mentioned above, can't see it being much of an issue at 25mph on preserved lines, and anyway they look positively luxurious compared with some. But when I'm the one sweating over the shovel I'm always in favour of a bit extra ventilation!

Its more the disposal I'd be concerned with, which apparently all the class were pigs for.

 

Presumably the Stanier cab on the later models was intended as an improvement over the original. Looking at some of my own images of both types, I don't think the cab arrangement will have a big impact on the loco, so this is one new-build I will support come what may. Iagree though, incorporate anything that makes prep and disposal easier.

(Gav, are you somewhere setting up a "register of interest" ?)

Just as an aside, the workings I saw in my patch of the woods tended to show the Fowler tanks working smokebox first, eg they were turned for a return trip.
So Manchester to Sheffield via the Hope Valley, the loco turned at Sheffield Midland where there was a turntable to one side of the station by some carriage sidings.And Huddersfield to Sheffield, extended to Chesterfield on a summer Saturday, the return ECS from Chesterfield to Sheffield always had the loco smokebox first, so it must have quickly turned at Chesterfield.

Incidentally the one thing I don't see this loco ever doing is being a "Shap Banker" as per the Steam Railway article!

46118

 

Enginemen would always turn their engine to be chimney leading if the opportunity were available. Although tankies were designed to, and indeed can, work equally well in both directions, drivers preferred to have the controls in front of them, and both men were less pleased with the airflow coming up from behind blowing coal dust into the cab when the bunker was leading.

I mentioned in a previous post that the limousine cabs were considered dangerous when exchanging tokens on the move; there was a real danger of the fireman falling out. The LMS transferred these engines away from sheds where single line working was a regular diagram for this reason, replacing them with earlier class members with the cut-out cab sides. Since the new engine will spend almost its entire life in this situation, it really does need serious consideration.

 

What beautiful coaching stock.

 

I'm getting lost!

For the avoidance of doubt, which version is the "limousine cab"?

From the pictures on the previous page, I assume 42350 has the Fowler cab and 2400 (with the side windows) the Stanier cab. Which cab is it that is problematic?

Tom

 

Right, the limousine cabs were the later ones (2400) with side windows and full-height doors. It was safer to lean over the cab door of the earlier version (2350) and have room either side within the cut-outs for the fireman to position himself when exchanging the token. The full-length door not only had to be fully open, leaving a yawining gap in front of the fireman, but there was solid metal either side of the door frame restricting the fireman's freedom of movement.

 

Thanks! That makes sense. So the earlier cabs seem to be more popular on here, but were also considered safer when exchanging tokens.

Tom

 

Without belittling the issue, the cab structure is a relatively easy part of the job. If the expensive bits can be funded and created, then maybe if this is a joint shareholding job, they can decide on the cab to be fitted.
I agree with LMS2968 though about token changing, as we see regularly on the SVR, and there is a "safe" way of leaning out, but the crews appear to be able to adapt to different footplate styles on the Valley, be it LMS, GWR or Southern.

 

For people advocating the swapping of cabs, I suggest they read Wild Swan Publications LMS Locomotive Profiles Volume 3 The Parallel Boiler 2-6-4 Tanks. They will find that there were more rear end alterations than just cabs,

 

Moving away from the benefits of a more open cab on a preserved railway. From a historical interest point of view we already several evolutions of this type of loco in the form of Std4s, fairburn tanks, and 2500. Wouldn't it be more interesting to show where it all started with an accurate replica of the genesis for the class 4 tank i.e. an original Fowler version.

Tim