West Somerset Railway General Discussion

It sounds like it's been in there an awfully long time. I'd say two years maximum, we've managed to turn quite a bad coach round in about a year and a half, including corridor connections coming off, new corners welded on, windows out, new upholstery, new wood panelling etc.

Martin's timescale of 4-6 weeks for a repaint and minor repair sounds about right to me.

 

As it was Restorations working on an Association coach, I suppose it was not earning them any revenue, so therefore it could be thought of as something to be worked on when there is five minutes to spare.

 

An impossible question to answer I know but do you have any rough idea as to whether a Mk.1 takes longer to repair fully than its immediate predecessors such as Hawksworth or Bulleid 1947 stock?

Paul H

 

You have highlighted the problems that can arise when you have a company taking on commercial work from any customer who offers work, you may have a full order book/workshop already but you don't want to turn further work away, so you taken on the new extra work as well.

It is very easy to have more work than you can reasonably tackle in a reasonable time, work log jams, customers who won't wait either skip the queue or go elsewhere and so on.

Whereas a railway's own workshop working on its own equipment without the distraction of "outside contract work" remains focused on its own work, is easier to manage, would have lower costs as it requires less detailed management for one off job quotation, materials procurement and job management, all of which would be added to the general overhead when running a company that majors on "outside contract work".

Also when the railway company is running its own workshop, it will set its own standards and no doubt be happy with what it produces.

A company that takes on general contract work will always be treading the tightrope of customers expectations versus what the company was quoted for at the outset and a customer who does not accept the cost of emerging extras can really be an issue for a commercial company, this is another matter that tends to increase the hourly rate to spread any risk.

I am sure some people may think the above can all be solved by a tight specification and close adherence to that however the heritage railway movement seems to be littered with examples of jobs not quite working out as per expectations!!

Its not easy

Jeff Price

 

That would be good but I think it was started in 2012 wasn't it? The Gloucester Warwicks with their well honed operation would actually achieve the work required in a matter of a few months max, but then that is a proper carriage organization not Restorations who seem to take an eternity to do anything!

 

that depends on the skill base of the people working on it, for instance, on a woodern framed coach, framework may need new bits cut in, and new sections made, that means you have to have craftsmen who can splice and made new sections, where as making new metal sheets to size , whilst its still a job for someone who knows what they are doing can be done by most fitters, and again, metal cladding over a woodern frame needs holes drilled , counter sunk and insulation put in before screwing on the new panels, i would say a mk 1 should be easier as you would weld on the side sheets, or repair panels . so i would expect a mk 1 to take 2/3rds of the time it would to restore a Bulleid or Hawkworth coach.

 

One side issue of this is, that if you have taken on more work than you can handle, then the quality of the finished product will be inferiour because you will be looking to cut corners to prune off time scales, and then you have another problem with rework, when the client wil refuse to pay the contract in full if your job is not as specified ,so ou have two problems, orders you can not full fill, when you need the money coming in to meet your own very large overheads, and clients who may not pay.

 

An impossible question to answer, indeed. Being an engineer I'll reply with the standard "it depends". An obvious question is "Has it been fully restored once during its heritage railway existence?" It may therefore be a simple refresh and minor body repairs. Taking on a vehicle that is completely unrestored is a whole new ball of wax.
To carry out a proper structural repair to a Mk1 might involve removal of a good corridor connection to allow the, perhaps, good end sheet steel to be cut away to expose the crash pillars of which the lower foot may be rusted right through. The cosmetics, such as historically authentic luggage racks, correct moquette and accurate ventilator grilles, would be well down the priority list once the rest of the exterior and interior are restored.
On the other hand a GWR vehicle such as the unique Collett Bow-end Composite at Bewdley, as is the case, might need to undergo significant replacement of the timber framework and door frames. This is even before replacement compartment walls are considered. Historically accurate replica decorative mouldings and fitting will also need to be made.
Another example, again a GW(SVR) vehicle, is Collett Excursion Brake Third 650. It was only about 2006 when work started to be recorded although much had been carried out before then. The chronology of its restoration and imminent return to service is well documented at http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/650_restoration.html

And they're the good'uns.

 

Which is part of the problem. If restorations was working for the good of the whole railway rather than trying to make a quick buck it might still be holding the lease.

 

If Britannia does not run through to Minehead, 3850 is currently rostered for the train. I'm interested as well as I'm rostered as WSR Conductor Guard for this train! I expect to find out what is happening when the Ops Notice for next weekend is published, which should be on Wednesday.

 

I am amazed at just how little specification and tendering goes on in the heritage world. A handshake and "It'll be done when it's ready..." amost seems to be the norm for some works. I can understand how restorations carried out by volunteers can take a long time because you are relying on people giving up their own time, but many professional repair or maintenance organisation seem to be just as vague regarding works required and delivery dates. Just look at Flying Scotsman's history...

 

An impossible question to answer I know but do you have any rough idea as to whether a Mk.1 takes longer to repair fully than its immediate predecessors such as Hawksworth or Bulleid 1947 stock?

My only experience is with Gresleys, but I'd say there isn't much in it for basic body repairs. Where the real difference lies is the fact that a Mk 1 usually comes with most, if not all, its interior fittings, whereas most Gresleys do not and the need to source all those items is where the main cost of restoration lies. What we have found on the NYMR, though is that whilst the Gresleys do need more TLC to their varnish (mainly because we haven't got a carriage shed yet to protect them in the winter), our longest restored one, buffet 641, has been running for around 20 years now and will need very little attention to its bodywork at its next overhaul.

 

Yes indeed. I gather one of the reasons for the construction of "Train Story" at Havenstreet was to reduce the need for annual revarnishing of the exclusively wooden bodied stock. The real problem on the I.O.W. has been caused by running up and down Ryde Pier in the past causing serious corrosion to the metal underframes. A Mark 1 running on the Pier would suffer spectacular corrosion!

Paul H

 

Many railways do contract work for other similar organisations. Such activities are a perfectly normal way of ensuring that the best use is made of available resources whilst also making a useful contribution to the cost of running the facility. In an ideal world income from contract work would fully fund the overheads making the actual unit costs of in house work as low as possible. The skill is in achieving the correct balance of work to keep all clients satisfied both internal & external. This isn't "making a quick buck" it is sound management practice.

 

I quite agree that there is nothing wrong with railways doing contract work per se. But often it tends to specialise in a particular aspect, eg SVR does boilers very well, SDR does wheelsets. But when it's just general work that isn't particularly specialised, (I believe PCz defended this by saying they were getting a reputation for painting!) done rather slowly, and done to the detriment of the host railway, ( IMHO virtually all of the mk1s on the WSR could do with a link of paint) I'd suggest something is wrong.

 

I would say that PCz's reasoning is that he does not see Restorations as part of the WSR, but as a stand alone revenue earning arm of his empire .

 

The choice as to whether work is done 'in house' or 'contracted out' ultimately will be decided in an ideal world by the simple criterion "where do I get the best outcome per pound spent ?"(similarly "Where is my volunteer hour best used? ".)

Many Heritage Railways have developed "centres of excellence" as mentioned in previous posts. The reasons why are invariably complex eg available space, appropriate facilities, specialist skills etc etc, I suspect the emergence of a particular skill base has been more by accident ie taking advantage of what is available, rather than the outcome of a considered strategic plan.

The challenge for any railway surely is to select well. If there are adequate boiler shops in the UK to meet market demand then setting up another one might not be the best use of resources. Similarly if the railway has resources that are under-utilised then it is clearly sensible to seek outside work.

However there are perhaps other issues other than what is available. I have always thought that 'vertical integration' in companies ie doing everything in house, whilst acknowledging the force of the "we do not have to rely on others" argument, leads to non competitive actions ie financial inefficiencies, whether time or material based.

I note Jeff's comments wrt the effect of having too much work. IMHO that's a problem many organisations would like to have. The 'elephant in the room' in the Heritage Railway business I suggest is a lack of money. How many pieces of kit are occupying potentially valuable shop floor space whilst more funding is sought ?

Specifically on the WSR there is much rhetoric concerning the use of the Williton site, whether it be the Swindon shed or the leased Sherings yard. The yard is currently home to a stored collection of carriages (often referred to as the "chicken sheds") which at the best are being saved from further degeneration, albeit at a cost. The shed finds various uses which apparently totally fail to optimise the use of the space. However there is AFAIK no money available to improve the facilities or sponsor rapid progress on any specific project.

There are attempts afoot to unravel the "curate's egg", but as is so often the case with volunteer based organisations the intended committee includes "Uncle Tom Cobley and all" (I have always thought that the effectiveness of meetings reduces exponentially as the number of participants exceeds two),

Ours (heritage railways) is a wonderful activity; it achieves miracles on a shoe string. The best we can do is to optimise what we have, each Railway has to decide the appropriate mix of "in house work" "out sourced work" and "outside generated work to be handled internally". Easy to state, very difficult to manage, it's hard enough with an all salaried work force, even more challenging when much of the activity relies on volunteers.

Michael Rowe

 

What's likely to be guest locos for Oct gala?