Anyone fancy joining a putative line revival project?

Hate to say it, but the RHDR schools service is no more. Many railways have had community railway intentions (KWVR and Weardale spring instantly to mind) but I can't think of any currently running.

These court cases sound fascinating. I've worked in the law for 10 years and have only come across two or three reported cases in that time that could possibly provided the level of finance requested here, and all of them have involved Russian oligarchs and have been very much in the public realm (English courts are generally open access you know).

 

Ah, hello Richard. I remember when you got laughed off the Horsham Facebook page with your ideas about 18 months ago. Things not going well then?

 

Suffice to say this one involves agencies of the law, defence, fraud and misconduct in public office. No oligarchs. Sorry to hear the RHDR packed in the school train.

A1X, we were making progress with plans but Neil's ability to commit to the project came into question, and others have subsequently called his competence into question. For what it's worth, I received numerous messages of support after the Horsham FB page debacle.

 

For those not familiar with the line here is a link to YouTube video of the line before closure.

 

I'm also intrigued by these court cases. Could you point us to the press coverage that - if their conclusion is going to be front-page news - they have no doubt already received on the inside pages of the quality press? "Sub judice" in itself does not of course mean that the cases cannot be mentioned at all - that requires a very specific type of injunction. Unlike other people on Nat Pres I am not a lawyer but I would have thought cases involving misconduct in public office would be relatively unlikely to have such an injunction granted on grounds of public interest.

There are many lines that have promised community services or "shoppers' services" and either not delivered them or tried them and found them wanting: ones I can think of that haven't been mentioned are the West Somerset, the Wensleydale, the Lincolnshire Wolds, the Severn Valley. The question here of course is: what would be different about *your* operation, once it is up and running, that would make them a success, and would that preclude the line also being a heritage railway and/or tourist attraction?

 

Good entertainment this. Much like when i posted a picture of 92214 on a Facebook group after i'd weathered it. I think it went on to be the most commented on picture in the group thanks to Mr Harrolds input. I seem to remember it being 'when i build my railway we wont need to run photo charters, and locos will look immaculate. Not representative of a by gone time'...

Anyway, best of luck with building your railway. Having the financial backing based on winning a lawsuit sounds a little dubious to me.

 

And, again, Epping-Ongar, where the provision of a regular "commuter" service, which was actually an obligation under the original arrangement to transfer the line from LU to private ownership, was tried and, surprise, surprise, failed.

There is a similarity between the Cranleigh and Ongar lines, their situation in prosperous outer suburban areas. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the EOR has succeeded because it remained basically intact and, whilst there were several years of hiatus while ownership and control issues were resolved, there was in place an enthusiastic individual with experience of the transport industry and, most importantly, substantial funds at his personal and immediate disposal. Such people are almost as rare as hen's teeth!

The situation in Surrey is, in reality, totally different. The more BrightonBaltic tries to justify his scheme, it's hopelessness becomes more obvious. It's a waste of space on NP, forget it!

 

Lovely, thanks.

Here's a link to the small flat pack Sainsbury's.

Dropped pin
near B2128, Cranleigh, Surrey GU6
http://goo.gl/maps/Wrbov

I have to say that if this did ever get any traction as a heritage scheme to Peasmarsh (unlikely in the extreme, for all the reasons outlined here), I'd actively campaign against it, and encourage local residents to do the same, such is its wrongheadedness.

Simon

 

As a someone who has spent the last 50 years watching the established Railways grow up i feel that the cost of this line being reopened will only be covered by the Government as and when the cost of private motoring forces people off the roads. The cost of a main line connection and signaling alterations, etc will be too costly for a heritage operation. Then where will all the coaching stock and locos come from? The local area is not quiet in coming forward so lines of unrestored rolling stock will not go down well.

The Sainsbury site in Cranleigh will be worth Millions without looking at buying up all the plots of land that have been sold off. If extensions is what interests any one out there with money to spare then there are many projects or possible projects to sponser. (Bluebell to Ardingly is one, and although not on Bluebell agender put the bridge back at Sheffield Park and go south to a new Terminus at Chailey, which could have a park and ride facility).

 

Without being unnecesarily harsh, I think you have your answer and further lengthy posts trying to justify the scheme would seem to be a bit of a waste of effort? You asked, people answered.

Was this 'fear' because you felt people wouldn't say what you wanted to hear? Should that not have suggested something? That if you 'feared' people would dismiss this idea, then the idea itself might just not be practical?

To be honest I think that you have got off pretty lightly - people have been constructive and discussed the idea sensibly. To your credit you've presented yourself reasonably well in terms of your honesty and you've not chucked your toys out and stomped off in a huff because people didn't immediately go "Brilliaaaant!".

Compared to some of the fruitcakes that have proposed ludicrous schemes on here (Dunstable scrapyards - complete with free asbestos removal in supermarket placcy bags, Meon Valley fantasies, etc), this subject has provoked sensible debate, but you are glossing over an awful lot of stuff that has obviously not been thought through properly.

If I were you I honestly would have a look at this web site as your best and most sensible way of 'reopening' this line: http://www.ehattons.com/ And then go and join the Mid-Hants, Spa Valley, etc where your considerable energy and enthusiasm will no doubt be welcomed with open arms.

And as for the guy with the court case? For your own sake.. run away, my friend, run a very long way away.

 

An interesting read.

'BrightonBaltic' you are come across as a fairly intelligent and articulate person, yet at the age of 23 (if I've worked this out correctly) you lack the means to run a car? What exactly are you doing with your life, flipping burgers? I would suggest that if you were to dedicate your obvious energy and enthusiasm into something more remunerative than whatever you are currently doing then you could soon afford to run a car; you would then be able to channel your obvious enthusiasm for heritage railways into an existing scheme where you could very well make a useful contribution.

In the meantime I would leave your potentially wealthy friend to win his court battle and then let him decide how to spend his own money; even if what you say is true he might surprise you by wasting it all on yachts and fast cars and a big house, and then what?

As far as your proposal is concerned, I'm not familiar with the route but from reading the thread it sounds like there is a "commercially viable bit" and a "not commercially viable bit", so forget the latter and work on the basis that the former should be part of the national network, and if you're still interested in it then put your effort into lobbying local authorities into protecting the route from further development and including its re-instatement (even if only aspirational) in their local plans. Once you have that you have effectively secured public backing and if your friend still wants to bankroll it once that is done, put him in touch with the local councils and Network Rail and leave them to it.

If the route is commercially viable to run but not to rebuild, yet you were to somehow manage to reopen all or part of it privately, then all you would do is reduce the effort required for Network Rail to step up and take it over - you'd have done all the work for them and you'd be left with nothing to show for it.

Finally:

Heathrow spur? Although it was newly built rather than a reopening, of course.

 

I've never said "when". "If", maybe. I don't approve of "weathering" locos with paint for photo charters, I think every effort should be made to present locos and carriages in a condition that you could safely eat off any given surface, but that's a whole different argument that I don't want to get into again.

To the former: I am unaware that they have received any coverage as yet, and there may be an injunction in place - I'm not au fait with every last detail. The LWR is as yet just a short industrial line rather than a 'somewhere to somewhere', isn't it? Wensleydale is starting to develop significantly and so it may be worth another go. I am not familiar with the WSR or SVR operations, except that I read of some local commuters using the SVR in preference to buses. I am not qualified to comment upon the viability or otherwise of such an idea - although the business theory seems OK to me, detailed experience is quite another matter. It was not originally me who proposed such a thing.

As regards locos and carriages - Neil Jackson was supposedly in talks with a significant figure in the heritage world about this. I have had no independent contact with said gentleman as yet to verify this. In any case, even if we were able to go ahead with this project, the timescales involved would not, I suspect, suit his requirements. Neil suggested that he and his colleagues in his vehicle restoration business could construct new carriages (again, I don't know if this is true, some PMs I've received suggest certain of Neil's claims were in the realm of fantasy), and we were looking at what could be acquired in the way of mainly ex-industrial locomotives... new-build is also an option given the funding to pursue it, I talked to the South Devon Railway about it and was told emphatically that Buckfastleigh can build locomotives from scratch if so commissioned. I am under no illusions about the costs involved - the P2 "Prince of Wales", is, I know, going to cost around £5 million, and even a very modest tank engine will not come in at much less than half a million quid.

24 as of July 30th this year. Unemployed, have done some work in the realm of pipe organ maintenance and restoration. There's a little Victorian organ not far from Northiam station on the K&ESR. which I had a hand in restoring last year. Trying to find employment in the meantime (through both applications and speculative communications) but it's tough going for a college dropout. As for my litigious friend - I don't feel the need to go into personal detail but he has made his lack of materialistic ambition clear. The national network option has been explored and rejected because SCC won't fund it, and there was some opposition to 60mph+ units running past gardens in Bramley/Wonersh (whereas some who oppose that seem more amenable to the idea of 25mph steam etc). The only way it's going to happen is with private investment and probably quite a bit of volunteer labour. The Surrey section of the line is already subject to the protection you cite, which is a relief. I very much doubt that NR would want to take over an existing heritage railway... there's been enough talk of that with regard to the Spa Valley and Lavender lines with the "Wealden Line"/BML2 campaign and that doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I am inclined to agree... although I am not giving up altogether, I will have to think carefully about how I and my remaining colleague might go about building a group, and how any such group might begin to pursue any scheme involving this line.

No. I want honesty. If I don't like what I hear, tough shít, my problem - unless what I don't like is obviously lacking in any factual basis (if I had a quid for every time the 'funding dilution' argument had been raised and proven wrong, this scheme would be paid for already!).

As for my friend's litigations - I've known the chap a fair while, I know I can depend on him as a person. At the moment, the best-case outcome from his case seems almost too good to be true, but the relevant laws appear quite clear to me, and so I continue to hold out some hope (without making plans which depend upon his support).

 

Anyway - thank you all for your feedback. I think it is now time for me to retire from this discussion with as much grace and intact dignity as I can muster. You will probably still see me around on other parts of this forum (at some point I'm going to have to get round to reading the huge Bulleid Pacifics thread, and I will probably have some questions to raise about those fascinating machines). I hope, a few years from now, that I can return with some better news and more solid plans (and a decent-sized group behind me). Until such time as that has been achieved, I shall say no more of this project in the active future tense. It seems my original instinct - which was to avoid posting here about it at all until the aforementioned were in place - was correct, but perhaps it's given me a greater degree of wisdom and realism about the whole thing. I'm not the type to just give up on something - I'm more the type to take "it'll never happen" as a challenge - but there's no sense wasting your time with hot air and vapourware. One thing's for sure - delusions don't build railways (or anything else, for that matter). I have a few other projects (outwith the railway sphere) to pursue, and I hope I can thereby gain some useful experience (both for the eventual pursuit of this scheme and also for my professional life, whatever shape that may take!).

In the meantime, if anyone would like to offer me any work (it's a long shot, but nothing ventured, nothing gained! I'm a cheeky git, I know...), PM me... I also have some vaguely-formed notion that I'd like to run a pub (on the basis that those I have visited rarely fill me with delight, and I think I could, with the relevant training, do better), so if there are any landlords on here...

I am suddenly reminded of that famous Will Rogers quote: “Never miss a good opportunity to shut up”, or, as Mark Twain supposedly had it, “The right word may be effective, but no word was ever as effective as a rightly timed pause”. Time for me to quit rambling and STFU! Over'n'out! Goodnight!

...I never was very good at economising my verbosity... my father has long joked that I was vaccinated at birth with a gramophone needle...

 

I realise you've said you're giving this thread up as a bad job, but I thought I'd mention that the LWR - and specifically, your reaction to it - is maybe a useful example!

Thirty years ago the LWR were in a similar position to yourself - in fact, a rather better one in some respects. They were beavering away at restoring the rail link between two towns, one the largest in the area to have lost its rail service, the other the major economic hub of the area. They had an unobstructed double-track formation along the entire route, and I think around that time they had established themselves a base to work from, at a former station site midway along the line. They were promoted heavily in the area, regularly placed small news items in the local press, and leafleted the surrounding area with their plans: 16 miles of single track and cycle path, steam at weekends, community diesel services in the week.

So now, 30 years on, how far have they got? To the stage where enthusiasts like yourself think of them as "an industrial line from nowhere to nowhere". They run from their "base location" to the next original station site along the line. They still plan to expand, but a large chunk of trackbed has gone.

Every railway is different, of course - but look by comparison just how many more issues you're facing even to start.

When I talked about the SVR, incidentally, I was thinking of when the line initially reopened from Bridgnorth to Hampton Loade, and - according to the reproduction timetable I've seen - advertised its Saturday morning diesel services as "Shoppers' Services". Bewdley-Kidderminster is one of the few commuter services on a heritage line that might make sense; but "might" is not the same as "does".

And I'm still intrigued by these court cases. Is this a criminal prosecution? When did it first reach court? If your friend can't answer those type of question...run away very fast, without passing Go or stopping to collect £200.

 

I should make it plain, I have never been to the LWR, nor any part of the county of Lincolnshire, so perhaps my judgement was more than a little hasty and lacking in factual basis. I seem to recall reading they've had some ex-BR visiting locos. I know nothing of how much public or political support they have. The volunteer shortage is an old story, and I imagine could be an issue in a big, largely rural county whose public transport network was so decimated.

Litigations - I am not prepared to discuss the matter further, for fear of jeopardising them. I am sufficiently familiar with the cases concerned to know that it's not legal vapour, so to speak.

 

Wensleydale s perhaps a better example of a line based on "community railway" aspirations and , at the risk of being deemed harsh, I think only its most fervent supporters would deem it a raging success. Their saviour has been the introduction of steam services, but as a very late entrant to that field they are reliant on hired-in engines and do not yet have the infrastructure to support more intensive use. It is going to be a slow, expensive and uphill struggle for them to evolve into a successful steam railway.

 

I suppose one could also cite the Mid-Norfolk. I've heard a bit about the Royal Deeside, they seem to have come from nowhere pretty quickly, but (for all that I have family in that part of the world) I have (again) never been to that part of the world so can't really comment.

Reopening a railway that's just been abandoned as opposed to dismantled isn't necessarily a walk in the park - Epping-Ongar had to rip up all the existing track and replace it, did away with the old signalling too IIRC.

I'll be conducting further research into the endeavours of the more recent startups which have succeeded.

 

Richard, whilst I fear your scheme is doomed for all the reasons laid out by others above, I have to say how much I enjoy reading your responses. Your command of English is remarkably good for someone of your generation, and I think this is where your future lies, if you are seriously looking for a career. Very few people have made any money at all from preservation activities without first earning the seed-corn to kick-off their dream hobby-job. So I'd say forget the organ and keep all that stuff for the weekends for now, and go looking for a job in jounalism, or, god-forbid, politics.

I'd far rather read an article penned by yourself in the Steam Beano or other such mag than some of the sloppy 4th form prose they currently churn out, just so long as it's not about the Guilford to Little Snoring Railway Earn some money, interface with the real world, get a car, leave home, chase some girls, then refocus on this sort of stuff in a few years time. No harm in keeping it going on the back burner, but right now it appears to be all consuming and there's more to life at the age of 24.

Good luck.