LMS design Sleeper for scrap

I must be showing my age as nobody else seems to remember that the Bluebell actually did offer overnight accommodation in the Queen of Tarts cars back in the early 90s for the boil in the bag train punters. It wasn't a success, it was a pain in the rear end, didn't add to the product and consequently didn't continue for long.
What may appear a good idea to a gricer doesn't always translate to a commercial success.
The interiors of the sleepers at Horsted were complete and in good order when I was there. Most of the compartments were thoroughly stripped, repainted and revarnished and looked good. The corridor was also very clean and there was a matter of pride for us residents of the time to keep it that way. The electrics worked and the shore supply fed a charger which kept the original batteries charged. All the lighting worked and a third of the heating elements were connected as was the fans. First one down on a Friday night put the lights and heating on. I slept there through the harshest of winters with over a foot of snow on the ground!
Alas, despite the application of paint, denzo tape and more paint the cladding got ever more frayed, the gutters despite mastic application and cleaning out leaked ever more and the roof was corroding and more and more windows leaked. It was like King Canute holding back the tide. One day disaster really struck and the heating elements shorted out. After gingerly opening some of the panels up in the ceiling to be confronted by miles of cabling Wicked Uncle Ernie found the short where the insulation had perished. Fortunately it was repaired and the panels carefully put back otherwise the heating would have been kaput for ever. That was 20 years ago. What is that insulation like now?
Last time I slept at HK was about '98 and neither of the HK ones were brilliant then. They must be really rough now. That is why railways scrap them. They are too bigger a job to get back to an useable condition. To rewire that alone would be a monumental task let alone make it watertight.

 

Moving into the more modern era I've often idly wondered how a rake of Mk.3 sleepers (plus a couple of day coaches) and a pair of HST power cars would fare as a preserved beastie, setting off from one rail-connected heritage railway on a Friday or Saturday evening and back on the next. If you planned this right with coordinated event weekends at each host line you could achieve a pretty decent weekend package, and it would give the HST a chance to stretch its legs a bit. Yes, I'm thinking of when they're otherwise all gone - not much appeal yet, perhaps. And I know the Mk.3 sleepers were loco hauled - I did say it was an idle thought!

As far as the LMS sleepers go they are lovely things to behold, M380M got a proper external overhaul and was asbestos stripped under RVP ownership but was then sold before they did the interior, no idea what state it is in now. I'd really like to see a rake of them, but I'm pretty sure I never will.

 

Indeed, and consequently we have for example lost all five of the 'preserved' Thompson sleepers, although admittedly one of them was destroyed by accident.

 

An idea of what a Mk3 rake could look like - RPSI Mk3 10651 used as volunteer accommodation at Whitehead - LMSNCC26


Keith

 

Not that I was ever a Thompson aficionado but I seem to recall most of the vehicles he designed and were subsequently preserved and then scrapped were due to the poor materials they were constructed out of. i.e. Post war poor quality timber and I'm sure I read it somewhere some of the vehicles had wooden frames that were constructed from laminated material?

 

In 2018 the Caledonian sleeper will replace its 53 mk3 sleepers and 22 mk2 coaches with 75 "mk 5" coaches, that could give a boost to any railway that wants overnight accommodation or any tour company that wants an overnight sleeper pulled by a steam locomotive.

Not sure what's happening with GWR (TOC) and their 50 mk3 sleepers, I heard rumours they were going to be refurbished.


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There are 34 MK3A sleepers listed on the VCT site which nearly all are used for volunteer accommodation on heritage railways.

 

This could actually see off most of the remaining older ones... an uncoordinated mass cull could happen before we know it. Do we want this?

 

Absolute codswallop! Thompson vehicles built by the LNER used a mix of teak and mahogany and the frames of those that have survived are pretty good. The three surviving 1950 BR built carriages all used something akin to meranti and all have or are having extensive frame repairs.

Sawdust.

 

Well there you, learn something new every day. That told me!

 

If you are rich and unwell, you probably call some-one from Harley Street - if you are a Thompson Coach and are looking a bit (or a lot!) peaky, you call Dr Sawdust, so his does know!

The Thompson sleepers have all gone, but the other survivors of that gentleman's design remain - and I have always understood (from Dr Sawdust) that the LNER built ones (and I am a part owner of one of them) did use better quality materials than the BR built examples, but anyone who has seen 1623 yet will see what can be achieved even with BR built carriages (again, with due major surgery by Dr Sawdust!)

Steven

 

After such a glowing endorsement, I thought I'd share here a recent photo of new corridor side framing I've recently made for Thompson CK 18477.

Sawdust.

 

Unfortunately I have not been able to comment before now on this thread as a result of being blocked from posting for technical reasons. In the meantime the thread has drifted slightly from LMSR P3 design sleeping car 617.

Please correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it all 50 of the P3 post-war LMSR design sleeping cars http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/carriages/content.htm?id=carriages/lmsrsleeping are likely to have been built with sprayed 'limpet' asbestos or similar. Those surviving almost certainly still possessing it. It is now well known that this material is lethal and extremely expensive and difficult to remove. This being one of the principal reasons why five of those that did enter preservation are no more.

I have on my desk a copy of a document relating to a carriage still with us containing sprayed 'limpet' asbestos where the quote for disposal by an authorised contractor was £65,000 and that was two years ago. The price will have increased since. Specialist removal would I expect to be the same if not more.

Consequently. anyone taking on 617 will indeed need vary deep pockets, as will all other owners of such carriages when they bite the bullet and dispose of them. The longer they defer the day the more it will cost.

Of course it could be that 617 is clean. However, if it can be proven any sister vehicle has contained sprayed 'limpet' asbestos then a specialist asbestos examination and report will probably be required to prove its cleanliness and this will also not be cheap.

 

deleted

 

The Pontypool & Blaenavon's M378M had its asbestos removed while in NYMR hands about twenty years ago. M379M at Bere Ferrers and M380M at Ludborough are also asbestos-free. No idea about the others.

 

Whilst in total agreement with the first sentence, it is an unfortunate fact that all surviving Mark I Sleeping Cars almost certainly contain sprayed 'limpet' asbestos or similar. Again I am wiling to be corrected, but you would need to show me an asbestos survey of the vehicle involved to convince me. One for a proven contaminated vehicle I have on my desk runs to over 50 pages and clearly shows how extensive an examination is needed. Thus, the reality has to be that the surviving Mark 1s will have to go. That would not though prevent the recreation of example compartments using recovered components which could be then be displayed in a museum environment.

 

According to the VCT Carriage Survey the example undergoing restoration at Peak Rail has been decontaminated. I would imagine that the vehicles which were refitted for use in the Queen of Scots and Royal Scotsman sets in the 80s were also stripped, although most of those vehicles are now derelict in any case.

 

All five Thompsons were probably constructed using sprayed 'limpet' asbestos which clearly contributed to their demise.

 

The point is that you are going to have to deal with the problem one day and the sooner you do the cheaper it will be. Of course even now 'cheaper' is a very large sum.

Every so often the topic emerges in magazines and similar covering heritage railways but is soon forgotten. It is though one of a number of storm clouds gathering other the heritage railway movement with the capability of emitting a devastating strike of lighting at any time.

 

Directly in one case: the Goathland example was IIRC destroyed by fire after something went wrong during asbestos removal.