7027 Thornbury Castle

Just to add something a bit different, in the late 1930s/1940s the GSR in Ireland had a scheme (at very initial stage only) to build a 4-6-2T version of their 3-cylinder 800 Class 4-6-0 (aka B1a Class - like 800 Meadhbh preserved at Cultra). As the GSR was penniless it never happened; in any case commentators think it would have become a 2-6-4T if it had got any further.

Returning to 7027, only spoiled GWR fans would call this loco "unique and historically important" on the basis of a slightly different superheater..!!! Any other railway would kill to have had so many of their iconic express locos survive and run in preservation on the mainline. Several important railways have literally one or two surviving locos only, and from obscure classes at that. Even the LMS or LNER have a small handful of express locos surviving, with important classes extinct.
Meanwhile people worry about the last few mouldering Castles and Bulleids... You wouldn't miss them if they disappeared!

 

It's a castle.. It'll still run out of steam on anything but Welsh Dolce and Gabanner designer boutique, custom cut, washed and polished Swarowski coal delivered from a gold plated shovel.

Would be interested to see if it could be restored "stanier style" if the LMS had bought some as was originally the request.

 

You clearly hav'nt taken a lot of notice of the performance of 5043 in particular then!

 

or taken notice of what has been said in this very thread about it's superheater

 

5043 is a manicured a bit like a CRUFTS prize winning pooch though isn't it.

Its hardly fed like a scrapyard dog.

feeding it individually selected pieces of coal to it's firebox on a pink pillow delivered by a Butler hardly counts ..

How good would it be, if it was managed like a real non GWR engine thrown at a hill after being given a few weeks hard work ?

 

Insofar as that description may be deserved, it applies to the boiler, not to the rest of the locomotive. As I suggested above, the boiler could be restored as a spare for other Castles, leaving the rest as the basis for a reconstructed Star. Or, bearing in mind the GWS's intention of giving 4709 a No. 7 boiler in due course (after the stopgap of fitting it initially with a disguised No. 1), how about building two No. 7s and producing the super-Star that would have appeared in 1923 if Collett hadn't needed to keep the weight down by introducing the No. 8 for the Castles?

 

How does a no . 7 Compare to the 'correct' boiler ? a little bit shorter im guessing, but a better replacement than a no 1...?

 

Not sure how this argument works, so are you saying that she should not be restored merely because a lot of GWR locomotives survived, yes a few Castle survived thankfully but compared to the MN's proportionally its nothing and it was in all cases all down to luck and what ended up at Barry? Like all locomotives she will be restored assuming the money is available and if not who knows - lets be honest much as many on here like to criticise the GWS projects they are happening becuase people are funding them if people don't have the interest they don't donate the money.

 

No 1 boiler 14'10" long outside diameter 4'10 13/16" & 5'6" firebox outside 10'0" X 5'9"/4'0" 4700 as built, Hall Class etc
No 7 boiler 14'10" long outside diameter 5'6" & 6'0" firebox outside 10'0" X 6'3"/4'0" 47XX
No 8 boiler 14'10" long outside diameter 5'1 15/16" & 5'9" firebox outside 10' 0" X 6'0"/4'0" Castle Class

 

I think there is some confusion (although not in the post I have quoted I add!)

No.1 Boiler was fitted to 4700 as new 1919 and stayed in place till 1921 when new No.7 design was ready. (also fitted to various others including Stars, Halls, Granges etc)
No.7 Boiler fitted to 4701-4708 from new and subsequently to 4700.
No.8 Boiler fitted to all Castles in various guises and super heat configurations.

I have a vague recollection that certain dimensions of the no.7 and no.8 are the same (don't quote me however and I don't have the time to check this morning!)

 

? No 8 is approx 3" less in diameter?

 

you're thinking "fit 7027s boiler to 4708 with thicker insulation" aren't you!

I don't know what boiler 7029 has currently but 7027 represents the ultimate Castle design which came about due to non-availability of the perfect coal after WW2, so the snipes about firing it are not really relevant.

 

seriously though onto 7027..

where would it's future really lie ?

the obvious mainline players already have castles.. maybe WCRC ?

The other issue is gauging it, if your going to drop £2mn on it wouldnt it be a better investment to put it on a loco more gauge friendly ?

The other alternative is a preserved railway.. but thats a lot of change to spend for a 25mph trundle.. though it would be nice at the SVR, GWR or WSR.. it may be cheaper / easier / faster to come to arrangement on one of the other castles currently out of service.

Maybe there's another possible option..

if 7027 was cosmetically restored to exhibition condition.. perhaps that could be the basis of swapping 46235 from the Birmingham science museum ?

 

Same length and firebox I believe but I think the suggestion of thicker insulation may be to invite "lively discussion"!

 

Where did that figure come from? Seems excessively high unless there is a major problem with parts of the loco...

Why would Birmingham want Thornbury? They'd probably rather have a loco with their City name! There's already a Duchess working on the mainline anyway...


Keith

 

Arbitrary figure I admit, but I doubt it will sell cheaply and not many Barry Wrecks come in cheap these days to restore up to mainline condition.
£2mn is probably a closer figure than saying £50k.

The point isn't the cost however..its the place for it.. there really isn't much appealing about it apart from the fact it's a castle.. but when it has 7 sisters, 6 of which have worked previously and are mechanically complete, but only 1 currently working.. that doesn't pose an attractive starting point for it (Just as any other Barry wreck in similar circumstances).

But a cosmetic restoration for display has to be a more realistic starting point.
Of course it all depends if the owner wants to sell, and I understand the owner has some sentiment about this one, even if its not being restored currently.

 

GW boilers come in families, based I think on the flanging plates.
Std 6 (Great Bear) Std 7 (4700) and Std 12 (King) all have the same basic barrel diameters.
Std 7 was a short version of the Std 6 barrel (two rings, not 3) with a new narrow firebox
Std 8 (Castle) was basically a thinner and thus lighter barrel on the Std 7 firebox (there were firebox changes later)
Std 12 was basically a Std 7 with longer barrel and firebox

 

What a load of B*****KS!!
As far as I'm aware 5043 burns exactly the same coal as anything else on the main line, including in the past Russian, Polish, Columbian, Scottish, Daw mill, Kellingley to name a few....... All supplied by W Smith Wakefield.
Looking back over a long period, 5043 and 4965 even do not seem to have suffered with poor steaming in any way like many others have on the very same coal...
But never mind, why let reality get in the way of a good myth!

 

Ah you have sort of confirmed my vague recollection that the 47xx and Castles share roughly similar fireboxes