Surviving nineteenth century standard gauge locomotives

Did they run in Britain but now preserved abroad, or built in Britain for export? I'm minded to include the former (such as Mersey Railway "The Major") but not the latter (such as "Stourbridge Lion").

Tom

 

Oops - how did I forget

Tom

 

Yes, I realise I've made a slightly arbitrary decision in that one...

Tom

 

The Beyer works shunter mentioned up thread was built 1879, currently based at foxfield.

Also at Foxfield is Robert Heath no6 (currently in bits for a boiler overhaul) of ~1886 iirc, and Manning Wardle "The Welshman" of 1890.

 

Have you got the Black,Hawthorn that used to be at Derbyshire stone at Wirksworth?

 

A few of these industrial engines might over lap with ones you have already got.

Aveling & Porter
3567 1895

Andrew Barclay
699 1891
776 1896
782 1896
807 1897

Beyer Peacock
1827 1879
2464 1885 (tram engine)
2734 1886 (tram engine)

Black Hawthorn
266 1873
305 1874
912 1887

Borrows and Son
37 1898

Coalbrookdale
- 1865

Fletcher Jennings
158 1877

Fox Walker
242 1874
385 1878

Gibbs & Hogg
- 1898

Grant Richie
272 1894

Hawthorn's of Leith
244 1861

Haydock Foundry
C ? 1874

Head Wrightson & Co
21 1870
- 1871
33 1873

Robert Heath
- 1896

Hudswell Clarke
402 1893
431 1895
526 1899

Hunslet
287 1882
299 1882

Kitson & Co
2509 1883

Stephen Lewis
- 1863

Manning Wardle
641 1877
865 1882
1207 1890
1210 1890
1317 1895

Markham & Co
109 1894

Nasmyth Wilson & Co
454 1894

Nelson & Co
1561 1870
2203 1876
2937 1882
4004 1890
4444 1892
5087 1896

Pecket & Sons
614 1896
737 1899

Robert Stephenson & Co
2309 1879
2730 1891
2858 1898

I hope there isn't too many mistakes in this list.

 

Stephen Lewis - wasn't he Blakey in 'On the Buses' ?

Bob.

 

They were indeed built for service abroad, so they don't qualify under your current rules. However, I suspect that you'll soon complete the list of those within the UK, so it might be an interesting project to extend the criteria. I'm no expert on British-built locos abroad, but from my, admittedly limited and fairly casual, observation, there are not that many 19th century standard gauge survivors worldwide and, AFAIK, there is no comprehensive record.

 

Most intriguing... I hope you will enlighten us in time.
Have you cross-checked our previous not dissimilar discussion: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/pre-1916-locos-in-steam-in-2016.652267/page-4

 

That suddenly makes the project bigger - I'm just wondering how to process all those industrials (not my core area!) to make sure I don't get duplicates!

Michael R Bailey, in "Locomotion" (highly recommended...) gives the following list of complete or near-complete early locomotives (including replicas) worldwide, which I think is probably definitive, but only covers the first half of the century - not all of these are of British manufacture. Some of these replicas are of considerable historic interest and antiquity themselves.

- 3 Trevithick replicas (Coalbrookdale, Penydarren, Catch-Me-Who-Can), based respectively at the Ironbridge Gorge Museum; National Museum of Wales; and Severn Valley Railway

- Puffing Billy (Science Museum)
- 2 Puffing Billy replicas (Munich and Beamish)
- Wylam Dilly (National Museum of Scotland)
- Steam Elephant replica (Beamish)

- Billy (North Shields)
- Hetton Locomotive (a weird one; essentially a "replica" as we would understand it today, but built in 1852, and on behalf of an industrial concern rather than a museum) - (Beamish)
- Locomotion (Darlington)
- Locomotion replica (Beamish)

- The Agenoria (NRM)
- Stourbridge Lion (some significant components) - (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum)
- Stourbridge Lion replica - (Wayne County Historical Society, Pennsylvania)

- Rocket (Science Museum)
- 5 Rocket replicas (Dearborn, USA; New York, USA - sectioned; Chicago, USA; NRM - sectioned; NRM)
- Invicta (Canterbury Heritage Museum)

- Sans Pareil (Shildon)
- Sans Pareil replica (Shildon)
- Novelty (Replica with some original components) - MOSI
- Novelty (Replica) - Sveriges Jarnvagsmuseum, Sweden
- Marc Seguin locomotive replica (Villeneuve St Georges, Paris)

- Planet replica (MOSI)
- John Bull (Smithsonian Institute, Washington DC)
- John Bull replica (Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania)
- Adler replica (Nuremburg)

- John Stevens replica (Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago)
- John Stevens replica (Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania)
- Tom Thumb replica (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum)
- York replica (Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago)
- Best Friend replica (Charleston, South Carolina)
- Dewitt Clinton replica (Henry Ford museum, Dearborn)

- John Quincy Adams (Carillon Historical Park, Dayton, USA)
- Atlantic (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum)
- John Hancock (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum)

- North Star (replica with original components) - (Swindon)
- Lion (Museum of Liverpool)
- De Arend (Utrecht)
- Bayard (Naples)
- Fire Fly replica (Didcot)
- Ajax (Vienna)

- Mississippi (Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago)
- Rocket (A different one!) (Franklin Institute, Philidelphia)
- Saxonia (Nuremburg)
- Coppernob (NRM)
- No. 36 (Cork)

- Lafayette replica (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum)
- Beuth replica (Berlin)
- Linmat replica (Lucerne)
- Steinbruck (Vienna)
- Copiapo (Copiapo, Chile)

- L'Aigle (Mulhouse)
- Sezanne (Mulhouse)

- St Pierre (Mulhouse)
- Columbine (Science Museum)
- Mataro (Vilanova, Catalonia)
- Cornwall (Shildon)

- Pays de Waes (Brussels)
- Pioneer (Chicago)
- La Junta (Cuba)
- Odin (replica - under construction) (Copenhagen)
- Iron Duke replica (Didcot)
- John Molson replica (Montreal)

- Shamokin (Franklin Institute, Philidelphia)
- Rochester (Tallahassee)

- Samson (Nova Scotia, Canada)
- Nelson (Shildon)
- Derwent (Darlinton)
- Lion (Augusta, Maine, USA)
- Fire Queen (Penrhyn Castle)
- Memnon (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum)

Tom

 

Fire queen is 4' gauge, not standard.

 

I glanced, but will go back to that thread.

As for the hypothesis - nothing rocket science, but about the relative numbers preserved from each decade, and by inference, where the missing links are in preservation.

This graph showed the distribution of my initial 87, plus five unique replicas (i.e. the Trevithick locos, Steam Elephant, Planet, but ignoring the various Rocket / Sans Pareil / Novelty / Locomotion replicas which are duplicates of existing original locomotives). Obviously these figures are a bit out of date based on the additional locos identified on this thread, but in fact they only re-enforce the point, that while the 1870s / 1880s / 1890s are comparatively well represented in preservation, the middle years in particular - a time when the railways were expanding rapidly - are very poorly served. (I think Met 23 is the only loco from the 1860s that I didn't already have on my list - the others missing locos identified are, I think, all post-1870).



Tom

 

I'm pretty sure Belle is badged up as 'D', although I think in reality it's all the best bits of all six.

At a severe danger of sending this topic off at a hideous tangent, I'm tempted to wonder - were Haydock totally unique in giving their engines letters rather than numbers?

 

If you're including unique operational replicas, surely the couple of broad gauge replicas are fair game for inclusion - I suspect that may improve the figures somewhat.

 

Indeed, I'm collecting data at the moment ... If you include Broad gauge and replicas, you add one each to the 1830s (North Star); 1840s (Fire Fly); 1850s (Iron Duke) and 1860s (Tiny).

From my initial (standard gauge only) list, of the three locomotives surviving from the 1850s, none can really be described as providing a good representation of the era. The Hetton locomotive, built in 1852 and now preserved at Beamish, was built as a lookalike replica purporting to be of a design from thirty years earlier, i.e. from the 1820s. OW&W No. 252, from 1855, now consists only of frames, cylinders, motion and two of the three axles; its survival owing to its latterday use as an instructional model – interesting, but hardly giving the public an impression of mid-Victorian motive power. The third and final survivor from the 1850s, is the 0-4-0T Wantage Tramway No. 5 “Jane” (now at Didcot). It is small even by the standards of the time, and somewhat rebuilt from original appearance.

Coming to the 1860s, there are six survivors, but again most are not especially representative of their era. Two are the Furness Railway 0-4-0s, Nos. 20 and 25, of which 25 exists as latterly rebuilt into a saddle tank, and No. 20 has been reverted to its original form as a tender engine. LNWR No. 1439, of 1865, is again a small 0-4-0ST shunting locomotive. Midland Railway 158A of 1866 is more typical of front-line motive power of the era, though as currently preserved, it has been rebuilt with a larger boiler, cab and modern tender and its appearance is thus more typical of a late than a mid nineteenth century locomotive. NER No. 66 “Aerolite” of nominally 1869 bears only a passing resemblance to its original form, having been rebuilt in 1886, 1892 and 1902 and, in the process, even changed wheel arrangement twice and from simple to compound form of propulsion. As currently preserved, essentially the locomotive dates from 1902. Only Metropolitan A class No. 23 gives a good representation of mid-century mainline motive power of a general type widely represented in the railways of the day.

There is thus clearly a gap in preservation between the pioneer days, and the 1870s. Indeed, in the 21st century, it is rather easier to get a portrayal of the waggonways of the Georgian era or the pioneer mainlines from before Victoria’s reign than it is to form a picture of what the railways were like during the era of their great expansion in the middle of the century.

Tom

 

Trouble is rebuilding and updating make it so complicated...

Take your Earl. As you know nominally she's an 1895 design (built 1899) updated with 1900 design frames (built 1906), but held on the books as 1938 built.
Actually the boiler is most probably a 1930s updated design, the cab is a 1910s design, the cylinders are I think a 1920s design, the frames reinforced at various times up to at least the 30s, and the tender a 1911 version of a 1905 design...

 

36 (Cork) is 5'3" gauge thus also not eligible.

 

I realise that. the latter list was to show all the early surviving locomotives worldwide; not all of which would qualify for my more restricted purposes, by virtue of gauge or simply not being British.

Tom

 

Indeed. Aerolite is an interesting example: nominally dating from 1869, but in practical terms there can be little, if anything, dating from that time. Not just on the "grandfather's axe" principal of like for like replacement, but because the loco has been fundamentally rebuilt on numerous occasions.

I think that disqualifies here from being nineteenth century!

Tom

 

well any loco built for use in the British Empire could be said to be British surely. No 36 would definitely qualify as British if it wasn't for the gauge as Ireland was part of Britain proper at that time. Still, it's your game, the beauty of which is you get to decide whatever you want. It's all very interesting anyway, more power to you