CME Sat 6th August

The other point worth remembering that traffic was much less frequent over Shap in steam days so a laboured slog had less impact than on todays higher volumes. Factor in as well the variable coal quality experienced today which is discovered inferior when it is too late to fix generally.

 

I don't think I missed any point. And apart from the Shakespeare and Jacobites I don't know which will or won't have diesel assistance.
I do have every sympathy with anyone who books to travel to experience unassisted steam haulage and finds a diesel assisting at the back.
Apart from posting the shot from Scout Green I did however agree with Big Al that in steam days that load with that engine would almost certainly have been banked from Tebay to the summit. Unless anyone has a Fowler 2-6-4t lying around ( I can dream ! ) WCRC will have to make do with a big red diesel to help keep the train within it's scheduled path. It's not perfect but it's a fact of life on today's railway. And even though it's not a perfect world those 12 trains this weekend are far more than anyone would have expected in 1968. I'm afraid we just have to be pragmatic. As others have said there is a desperate need for more Class 8 locos available, but hasn't that been true for more than just this year ?

A bit of digging:-

RTT doesn't quote the summit times but following Leander - 1313 at Tebay (15 late) and 1334 (18 late) at Penrith
were
Euston Glasgow 1S52 Tebay 1330 Penrith 1343 (10 late)
Euston Glasgow 9S55 Tebay 1346 Penrith 1358 (10 late)
Manchester airport Glasgow 1s56 Tebay 1350 Penrith 1405 (12 late).

The transit times would therefore appear to have been - steam 21 minutes Tebay to Penrith and the following service 13 minutes giving Leander a 9 minute headway north from Penrith and 5 minutes on arrival at Carlisle, how much smaller would that gap have been if Leander had gone up Grayrigg and Shap unassisted after the standing start from Oxenholme ? By how much would the load have to be reduced to avoid that ?.
I don't know and I'm glad I'm not having to make that decision.

 

Another video from yesterday with shots taken from Preston, Galgate, Lambrigg, the Lune Gorge and Lowgill.

 

Not a topic for this thread. I did not "drag it up" but made reference to it in the context of appropriate loads for appropriate locos and reducing the load for the 5XP when the 8P is unavailable.

If you think delegating such a critical message to Virgin staff at Preston, which as you know is a very busy station is acceptable then you have never dealt with proper customer service. But, again, you are conflicted by your association with RTC and WCRC.

The correct and proper thing to do was for the train manager to "man up." Stop as scheduled. Explain the predicament to the assembled customers in a buisnesslike manner. It was an RTC tour not Virgin. It's called responsibility... since you have dragged it up.

 

Splendid set of movies, thanks for sharing.

 

Every time I read your waffle I promise myself I wont respond but the more rediculous it gets the more I have to. So you would stop a late running train try and attract the attention of waiting pasengers scattered along the length of the platform before they boarded and explain that they couldn't travel. How long do you think that would take? Meanwhile timetabled service trains are stacking up behind you and the bill for passenger compensation clocks up. If you were thinking of taking up my suggestion of setting up as a tour operator, please don't you would bring the whole business into disrepute.

 

I see from my Combined Volume 1960, that Jubilees built from 1942 onwards with larger boiler and double chimney were classified 7P with a tractive effort of 29,570lbs just below that of a WR Castle (31,625lbs), compared to those built from 1934 with a tractive effort of just 26,610lbs which was actually 665lbs lower than a WR Hall class. So, if Leander fits the latter specification it is perhaps inevitable that assistance over Shap is required now and in the future, unless on a smaller load than yesterday. I have to say that these statistics surprise me. It means that a WR Hall, SR West Country, ER B1 and a BR Clan were all more powerful than Leander. Gutting if your are a fan of the Jubes!!

 

Err. If it had the required number of coaches it would have stopped, late running or not. So how does that validate your rather weak retort .Looks rather rediculous whoops sorry ridiculous! However, an RTC representative could have been left on Preston station to manage the disappointed customers and probably caught up with a service train shortly afterwards. Many trains run late but do not omit a scheduled stop to make up time. Quite often on the network, any TOCs train can cause delays. The famous Galatea followed by Oliver Cromwell over Shap last year (both unassisted) caused a delay due to bad coal on Galatea I understand. I was on the train and that was the word then. BUT Galatea was late in the first place due to a very late running TPE which caused a long hold at Carnforth.

Again this is off topic but Customer Service is critical in any industry.

 

Out of interest what do you think TPE et al might have done in similar circumstances? It has always been my understanding that missing a timetabled station stop is a cardinal sin. The only possible justification would be the clear communication of such to waiting ticketholders together with suitable alternative arrangements for them..
I must agree that abdication of responsibility for the communication was a pathetic response to the circumstances given the timescale of Euston to Preston and the proximity of the TOC HQ.

 

Just had a look in 'Jubilees of the LMS' by John F Clay.

He lists the Class 6 load limits (5X uprated post nationalisation)
as
Carnforth to Carlisle Full load 415 tons, Limited Load 365 tons, Special limit 285 tons.

Can anybody shed any light on these relative to yesterday's load of 11 Mark 1s?

 

Two Jubs were so modified making them akin to the rebuilt Patriot 'Baby Scots'. Several Jubilee had double blastpipe and chimney over the years, concluding with 45596 which we all look forward to seeing next year perhaps. Maybe the new rules might permit for it to be considered in the 7 bracket but the owners may wish otherwise of course.

 

The only part hindsight plays in this is as part of the post event review and lessons learned which is what I am sure will have happened. What should and would be done differently next time to improve?
If I may say you seem to think that recognising and acknowledging shortcomings is a sign of weakness when in fact the opposite is true. The hand grenade cannot be reassembled but it can be prevented from going off in future.

 

Hmmm Maybe WCRC and DBC should sign up to Delay Repay then...

 

Tractive effort is not the only indicator of power and there were only two rebuilt Jubilees with Royal Scot type boilers which were to all intents and purposes the same as the rebuilt Patriots. there werealso two types of boiler fitted to the original Jubilees and both Leander and Galatea are the later type with long firebox. I'm not sure what difference this made to the performance and I would be interested to know what those with first hand experience think.

 

No. What we came up with was common decency. Abrogation of responsibility is shame full. Someone from Carnforth could have come down. The RTC rep could have spoken to customers. Your conflicted bias is showing.

 

Not necessarily. Nominal starting tractive effort is less significant once you've got the train going, since power is a function of tractive effort at speed, and one class of the loco with a lower nominal starting TE might be capable of producing more force at speed than a loco with a higher nominal starting TE. Or it might not, but you can only really know by putting it to scientific testing and producing lots of lovely indicator diagrams to compare between them.

Kind regards,
Chris

 

We try our best in difficult conditions Danny

 

Not really sure how purposeful this side debate is but Ralph even you must acknowledge the chosen course of action did nothing to mitigate an already bad situation. Nothing, as far as one can tell, of any practical benefit was done, not even confirming the messages had been effectively communicated. Had I been the RO or train manager I would have stopped as booked in order to speak to the ticketholders about to be disappointedhaving had two hours or so to prepare what would be said and offered. Additionally it would have been prudent to get a TOC rep there as well. Doing the right thing, it's called leadership.