Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends - Time to say "Goodbye"?

I tend to agree with @Steve : When we were involved with "Thomas", Hit used to get very upset about anything Thomas-like being in public view, whether with a face etc. ("decorated" in their jargon) or not.

This caused a major disagreement between them and me. We had a loco which had originally belonged to the Admiralty and had always been painted blue, albeit with its name, "Brookfield", in large letters along the side, having been in this condition since long before Hit or Britt Allcroft Ltd. had even been formed. Nevertheless, they objected very strongly and demanded, with threats of dire retribution, that the loco be repainted. I dug my heels in and suggested that their legal advisor contact me before I contacted my solicitor. Their in-house solicitor, a youngish sounding lady, then rang me and we had a long conversation- one and three-quarter hours, actually. She eventually rang off sobbing and no more was heard of the matter.

Some time later, when there was a shortage of "Thomas" replicas, they offered to licence "Brookfield". The terms, however, were a nightmare- among others, we had to make the loco available to any licenced operator, would not be allowed to use it other than at licenced events and had to keep it out of public view when not in use. Plus of course, we would be obliged to pay them a substantial annual sum for the right to operate the loco as "Thomas". The offer was declined.

Perhaps they can no longer afford to be so fussy.

 

Tom; it strikes me that, even if the number of visitors (and therefore the gross income) have dropped, if the costs as compared to a Thomas event have dropped even more, your net profit could actually be higher.

If other posters' experiences of dealing with Hit are anything to go by, the disruption and inconvenience of setting out the exhibition spaces may still be less hassle, overall - and you have complete control over how you arrange things, rather than having to deal with arbitrary rules imposed by outsiders, who appear to have little understanding of the market.

It sounds like whatever you lose on the swings, you more than make up on the roundabouts!

Best regards,

Jack

 

Indeed so.

I just took a look at our website archive, and it looks like the last Thomas event we ran was in 2007 - nine years ago. Since then, I don't think I have heard anyone seriously suggest that we should revive it, which tells its own story.

Tom

 

Do I detect a theme emerging on this thread?

Being sometimes entrusted to entertain two young children on my own, and having observed many other children at the railway and other attractions over the years, I realise the following should be considered anecdote, not data. But, for what it's worth, in my view, the attractions that seem to go down well are those with a variety of (possibly quite minor) things on offer, so that there is lots of distraction and entertainment. You would not believe just how much time my children at least can spend if there is a simple dressing up box to explore.



I'm not convinced that having a lead "character" (whether Thomas, or Peppa Pig, or someone else) actually makes a big difference to their overall enjoyment, and I think the risk is that for slightly older children (say 8-ish upwards) such characters start to become deeply uncool. So I think if you put on an event based around a character like that, you run the risk that you exclude families with slightly older children, while those with much younger children, it is other things they will find attractive. Last summer, we went to Hever Castle and they had a "knights and princesses school" that gave a diversion for an hour or so being dressed up, taught to act like a princess etc. I don't suppose it bore much more than a passing resemblance to actual mediæval life, but the kids enjoyed it, and their enjoyment wasn't lessened by the fact that it wasn't branded the "Mike the Knight" (*) school, but I bet the costs were lower for Hever Castle.

The last point is - don't forget the parents (or grandparents...)! Ultimately, they make the spending decision, not the children, so events or attractions have to be attractive to parents, particularly if you want repeat business. Personally, I tend to avoid character theme events on other railways, simply to avoid any kind of frenzy that would leave us feeling frazzled! But there are other attractions that keep the kids entertained even on "ordinary" days with things to do, and they tend to be the ones I would go back to.

(*) CBeebies character

Tom

 

Just about spot on I reckon! Everyone wins. The customer who has a product more attuned to their needs (as evidenced by visitor numbers) as well as the railway. As far as the latter is concerned it is likely to have better margins as well as retaining full control.

Paul H

 

The Ffestiniog Railway last had a Thomas weekend over 20 years ago now and it doesn't offer anything similar like Peppa Pig etc. However at times like the Easter holidays or throughout the summer it has things like children's entertainers, magicians, crafting, coloring completions, big blackboards for drawing on, footplate rides, bubble shows and so on. Basically inexpensive distractions that keep kids occupied and mum and dad on the railway spending money. Typically they are free or in the case of footplate rides we ask for donations. It seems to work very well and isn't as obtrusive and off putting for the older customers as say a Thomas weekend.

Tim

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. 'Flaman' has similar a perception to me and he has the benefit of having been involved with an agreement & discussion. I only know what I was told by the locos owner (he had the agreement with HIT) and we had to keep the loco out of site which was difficult at Middleton. Compromise was reached in that it wasn't to be on prominent display but at one time, the owner contemplated moving it elsewhere simply to comply with his agreement with HIT. It is conceivable that not every agreement was the same.

 

Same here, though we packed it up two years earlier.

It is a great pity, because throughout the '90s "Thomas" events were extremely lucrative and, I have to admit, quite fun. IMHO the seeds of the problem were sown right at the beginning.
I believe that the original agreement was negotiated personally between Britt Allcroft's representatives and Messrs Allan and Draper. Those who know/knew the latter two gents will suspect that the negotiation was a rather one-sided affair! Anyway, the outcome was highly advantageous to the railways; some time later we had a minor issue with Allcroft and I remember remarking to their railway liason person that I had no problem with their royalty charges, if anything they were too low. "I agree" she said "But we can't do anything about it because of the agreement!" The real trouble set in when Allcroft started to get involved in overseas markets, Japan and America particularly. This in turn led to the infamous Thomas feature film, obviously made with the American market in mind, which turned out to be a "dog". At the same time, Allcroft, which had previously kept a fair degree of control over how many licences were granted and to whom, allowed a free-for-all, presumably in an effort to maximise revenue-I think there were over 60 licences issued at the peak. I don't think that it's any surprise that shortly afterwards the company was sold to a private equity group, after which it was down hill all the way.

The moral is that it's sometimes unwise to squeeze your opponent too hard; it causes resentment and may even break them. Their successors may prove to be much worse!

 

Interesting reading off the back of reading the latest updates out of Didcot where their conversion of a Thomas is still proceeding which presumably means that its worth the hassle. The fact that is has continued up to now despite not only the hassle and costs that other lines face but in their case the additional transit costs of getting anything in and out of the site over NR must mean that it works. Having said that they tend to do it in a particular way. They do a couple of traditional weekends - one in March and one in October. After the latter one I think the loco tends to stay on site tucked away in the shed (albeit not totally out of sight but with the number and face removed) until December when they run 4 two day Thomas and Father Christmas events. Basically the kids get a ride behind Thomas to the transfer shed where Father Christmas gives them a present etc. They've got their own 08 to be "Diesel" and can often rustle up a pannier as "Duck" along with a "Toad", "Oliver" etc if they need them on display.

I'm not party to the terms that sort of set up runs on, but I would imagine that 6 weekends probably generates a lot of cash, and in turn a lot of fees for Hit - which may mean that a certain amount of leverage is available beyond that available to the one weekend per year lines. Plus if you only move a loco once for 5 weekends the costs probably work out pretty well.

I guess the unknown is whether the actual profit made by having some form of family themed weekends instead would be better - given the total amount probably involved I could understand a reluctance to take a big risk trying it!

 

Now you mention it, Tom, some friends of mine are in an English Civil War re-enactment group, and arrange a similar thing for children; giving out hats to wear, wooden muskets, simple poles to act as pikes, and teaching them some very basic drill. It ends up with the children charging their drill instructor, screaming their heads off, and with him 'fleeing in terror' - and it goes down a treat, every time! And, of course, their parents can take pictures of the children in their kit, so they have a very personal memento to take home.

Yet, compared to the enjoyment had by the children, the amount of labour and cost involved in doing it is chickenfeed.

Best regards,

Jack

 

The Paignton-Dartmouth line ditched Thomas and friends some while ago. Not only were the percentage demands quite unacceptable, I believe, but the whole affair caused far too much disruption to the good operation of a busy railway. Remember almost all those who work on the line a full time paid staff with just a few volunteers.

 

Going on my experience, I'd say 6-ish upwards. Also anecdote, but when the GCR ran an Ivor event a few years ago, we took the kids (5 & 2 at the time?). Son (then 5) hated it, refused a ride behind Ivor, and we wasted a trip to Loughborough. On the other hand, tell him that there's a gala on, and...

Daughter, by the way, is a lost cause to railways. She tolerated travel on the NYMR when we were on holiday up there last week, but only as a means to an end - preferably one that involved food and not walking. She won on the food...

 

How, do I go about getting a licence for a Hog Roast at a Pepper Pig event?

 

I popped in to the Great Central earlier today and they were having some bear themed family event, which is running every midweek operating day for about three weeks. They had what appeared to be their own characters, some face painting, some stalls and a mini fair ground at Rothley. It looked reasonably cost effective to put together, lots of kids had brought bears along and were having a great time, and no costly licence agreements to worry about. Balancing that against the numbers who might turn up for Thomas etc must be really tough.

 

I guess railway's really need events like that to bring home the bacon, but if you don't know what you are doing, it would be really easy to make a pigs ear of it ...

Tom

 

Here all week again I see Tom

 

Somewhere else on NP there are postings relating to Didcot hiring in a locomotive to operate on the demonstration lines. Priorities there seem a little bit odd on first consideration.

PH

 

Is there something you are trying to tell us?

 

Hmm... I remember hearing of a railway that held a "Peppa Pig" event (might have been the Churnet Valley, but I'm not sure) that finished off the day with a hog roast. To my mind that speaks of a rather splendid form of justice!

Steve B