Midland and South Western Junction Railway

Sadly I have known postings to get personal. Particularly annoying were the ones which claimed I had said something I had not and then attacked me for a point of view never expressed by me. Still I don't know whether such "misunderstandings" were accidental or deliberate; the latter being a real politicians trick. However, for a while I posted no more, being quite fed up with this.

PH

 

Ask them to quote the thing you are supposed to have said, then enjoy the silence.

 

Asking them to quote the thing you are supposed to have said, and then enjoying the posted apology is even better (this actually happened to me once here, but sadly some folk are devoid of insight and never apologise - we know who you are...).

Anyway, an interesting thread. Located somewhere between "wouldn't it be nice?" and "we're all doomed", a measured, realistic debate about how to (as far as practicable) future-proof the railway preservation movement seems entirely sensible. I can remember such discussions at a preservation outfit in the early 1970s. Many of the generic threats discussed on this thread were correctly identified even at that early stage (the rise of Health & Safety, ever-higher public expectations, the disappearance of cheap and readily available hardware, how to attract and retain volunteers, etc.).

 

I think there are degrees of 'personal'. For example I would regard "I've met poster X, his real name is Y and I think he's a complete plank" as completely unacceptable.

However, if a poster is obviously getting frustrated that people are missing their point, but is not expressing it in a clear and lucid way (as I picked martin1656 up on), or they keep moving the goalposts to justify their point of view (see the S&D thread of a few weeks ago), then I don't see it as 'personal' if somebody else points it out.

Frankly, if anybody has an issue with anything I post, I would respect them if they were big enough to front up and said "DB I think you're talking pish and here's why..." with a sensible and considered argument, rather than euphemistically talking about 'certain' posts. To me that's the online equivalent of being in the same room as someone whose opinion you disagree with, turning your back towards them and talking to others about 'a certain person' in a loud voice. It's plain bad manners.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that, if somebody is going to call anyone's post out, at least take the time and trouble to ensure you're objecting to the right person's opinion!

 

My issue is that as a railway enthusiast I like to just talk with like-minded individuals about crazy schemes that I know full well would never materialise, but just enjoy talking and discussing. NatPres used to be a relatively safe place to do that, unfortunately it's not anymore. That's fine if that's the direction of travel of NatPres, just a bit sad that's all

 

Anyway, getting back onto the subject of the M&SWJR, Now , im not advocating reopening any part of it before anyone gives me another kicking, but historically speaking, would there have ever been a commercial reason for the line in the first place, i can understand a line linking Andover, to Swindon, up towards cheltenham / Bristol, incidentally, where did the line finish? i suspect it was built in the first place as a way to encroach into GWR territory,
Someone earlier said about the Swindon & Cricklade, I have family who live near the line, and when i'm there you often hear the loco, last i heard, the railway were having problems with getting planning permision to build the line on to the new section to Sparcels ( country park) its an all new formation, that the council build inside the park, but the railway cant lay track on it, because they need to obtain planning permision and so far, its not forth coming, so any extension may well be towards Cricklade than at the Swindon end,

 

I sympathise with that view. There's no harm in talking about "wouldn't it be nice" schemes, or rather ideas; the problem is that a few people take them too seriously.

There is no such thing as an impossible heritage railway scheme; I can think of several, even in recent years, that I thought improbable- Welsh Highland, Lynton & Barnstable, Mid-Suffolk for example- that seem to have confounded the doubters. On the other hand, I can think of others (no names, no packdrill) which appear to be going nowhere.

I suppose that I'm responsible for one of the most improbable schemes- only a mile long, on a site where no railway had ever existed before and in a coastal location with no "seaside"- yet 30 years on, we're still going and developing. The reason that Mangapps has survived is that there was an initial vision, some realism as to what was actually achievable, someone to keep it on track and the availability of the necessary land and finance. Even with all of those in place, you still need the most important thing of all, committed friends and volunteers who are prepared to work together as a cohesive group. Based on my own observation, those that have failed to develop or run into trouble have lacked some or all of those factors.

Anyway, here's one to talk about. A few weeks ago the Memsahib and I spent a very enjoyable couple of days in Seahouses. I noted that the line of the old North Sunderland Railway is still intact and, apart from the Seahouses town car park on the station site, unobstructed. So there you are lads, a former independent railway, four miles long, from an existing station on the ECML to an attractive seaside resort. The original types of locos are still around, soon knock-up a few vintage carriages from old grounded bodies..........

 

It was built as a shambling sort of local line but developed, particularly under the hand of one of the best managers of the time, Sam (later Sir Sam) Fay into a very secondary sort of main line. Presumably help was gained from the Midland who were ever seeking incursions into Great Western territory as, with the S&D. The Grouping in 1923 saw the line swallowed up by the G.W.R. so bye bye through trains whilst the motor bus was shortly to take the local trade.

The I.O.W.S.R has recently been donated a poster jointly issued by the M & S.W.J. and that considerably more of a basket case, the Isle of Wight Central promoting travel to the Isle of Wight from places as far north as Carlisle, presumably using Midland Rly. connections. It is in sore condition but is currently in the hands of an expert conservator of paper objects. No doubt there will be much to learn about connections available at least in theory to the sturdy sort of traveller in search of a bargain.

Paul H

 

A fascinating line which I can just about remember, particularly at Andoversford where the MSWJR proper left the Kingham Line and ran south to Swindon and Andover via South Cerney and Cricklade. It was always a thorn in the side of the GWR who could not wait to take it over in 1923. Some of the locos and stock were absorbed but little survived WWII. The line itself was busy only really during the 2 world wars which might be expected for a line running from the Midlands to the South Coast via Tidworth and Ludgershall close to Salisbury Plain! This website is a most revealing window into what was originally the Swindon, Marlborough and Andover Railway: http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/

Andoversford Jct Station site is now a small housing estate but the pine trees planted by the GWR still remain. The Stn had 2 signal boxes, the Junction Box being built at the expense of the MSWJR. The nameplates are now at the Narrow Gauge Railway at the GWSR Toddington, together with some other very interesting local railwayana saved by the Dowty Railway Society I believe.

Supplied mostly with 2nd hand coaching stock from the Midland Railway, the MSWJR used the low roofed 7 compartment 3rd class coaches amongst others. The 8 compartment stock modelled by Ratio was not used by the MSWJR so I attempted a bit of a surgery job on a Ratio kit using information from the Net and from books. Apologies for the light bounce. Contemporary accounts from the 1910s refer to the Midland stock being preferred over the GWR stock for a journey from Cheltenham to Andoversford as the former was much more comfy! I can't believe I've written that. It would be nice to make the journey myself to see but some comfy Midland stock has been preserved (no 7 compartment examples though I believe).

 

One of the Ludgershall station signs survives in a private collection. Interestingly it's white text on blue - was this a MoD thing?

 

No, the colour was used on a number of MSWJR enamel station signs, including Swindon Town. This example from Withington, near Andoversford, at Winchcombe Railway Museum taken a few years ago.

 

I followed the link to www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk, but was left confused about how this cuckoo in the GWR nest ended up in GWR hands at Grouping.

This fascinating site also confirmed my instinct that the MSWJR was in that great class of railways (interestingly, often joint lines) built too late to be valuable and whose utility was in inverse proportion to their interest.

Sent from my GT-N8010 using Tapatalk

 

Ah thanks Kingham!

 

I don't really know the history, but I wonder whether, in the smoke filled negotiating rooms of the early 1920s, there was a quid-pro-quo that allowed the nascent LMS / SR to retain control of the S&DJR only if the GWR assumed control of the M&SWJR?

Tom

 

No problem. I have a powerpoint presentation on this line (in 2 parts - north of Swindon Town and south of Swindon Town) and stand ready to bore my local model engineers society to death once I'm given a date. (I'm available for lectures etc if you want to doze off to the sight of a lovely crimson MSWJR 4-4-0 with its rake of Midland cast-offs on a Southampton-Cheltenham "express" often with a couple of LNWR coaches for Liverpool - oh to be in 1912 - and reasonably wealthy of course!)

 

Ah fascinating, I must admit I'm quite taken by the Beyer Peacock 2-6-0s that the M&SWJR used to use. I gather there is/was a new-build attempt for one of these

 

There are at least 2 5" gauge models of Galloping Alice built by prolific model engineer John Percival. Here is a picture of one with another of his locos. At one time he ran No.24 with the Great Bears tender, which was nearly as long as the loco. One advantage that model engineers have is that they can bring dreams to life more easily than for the full size.

John unfortunately passed away at the end of August. The picture was taken at a memorial day for him.

 

I imagine the prospect of the LMS in Swindon may have concentrated minds!