LSWR T3 563

Errrrrrrrr.........................

Making a general point, in any discussion of a subject some of us will have specialist knowledge of the area (Housing Benefit anyone?) so if you have specialist knowledge it might help to outline - in this case Charity Law how it might affect the subject under discussion so that the rest of us numpties aren't left speculating pointlessly

 

Whatever the situation , I'm sure a number of us can very easily think of reasonably recent situations where things have gone very badly awry for locomotive owners or owning groups, and locomotives have spent several years rotting in headshunts or even had to be sold in a hurry. So its not unreasonable to ask why none of these bad things can possibly happen to the T3.

 

Because - presumably - the NRM has already asked these questions and been satisfied with the answers ?

 

I'd like to think so too. It would help if the NRM would issue a press statement that covers off the safeguards that have been agreed.

 

Charity law is one thing which I could probably look it up but so could you - but my post 137 gives you a clue how I've seen it done, however I have no idea how this individual charity operates as each will be slightly different - hence my comment if your so concerned why don't you like ask - its not in their interest to hide such things.

 

As i understand it, any item released from a museum has to be offered to another charitable trust, so in this case , is the Swanage railway its self a charitable trust or an Limited company? if its a PLC, then there has to be a supporting Charity, so the T3 will be gifted to a supporting charity, not the PLC in that case, prehaps someone from Swanage can clear this up, the only charity i can think of is the Southern Steam trust, which is Southern locomotives, which whilst they supply motive power to the Swanage railway are not actually part of the set up if i read it correctly as they also hire out engines to other sites, and the rest of the fleet are privatly owned ,

 

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/support-swanage-railway

 

The Southern Steam Trust no longer exists, that is now Swanage Railway Trust. Both completely separate from Southern Locomotives Ltd.

The day to day operation of the railway is carried out by Swanage Railway Company Ltd, which is owned by Swanage Railway Trust.

 

I thank you for compliments Tim, they are much apreciataed in fact, for I was not sure if my post would be view as fanciful in it's contents or not. I wouldn't expect all to agree completely with my thoughts either really, for if they did having discussion forum like this wouldn't be any near as interesting now, would they?

I don't believe anyone can ever say with absolute certainty that 563's future will be 100% secure for all time, for so much can happen in an instant sometimes, in ways we least expect (this transfer of ownership being a prime example). And while I do respect and apreciate the NRM for all it's done over the years to preserve our nation's railway heritage, I'm sorry to say it is an instituation that is far from perfect, certainly nowadays I seems. How many items of stock have been put under their responsibility, only to be left outside to rust, with little if any actions from the higher ups in doing something, anything to give them the better treatment they deserve. I found it appalling when I saw the pics of how the Robinson O4 looked before it was brought to the GCR, as it really seemed to me like the NRM had little to no care for the locomotive's care and presevation until a heritage railway came along to give it a much needed salvation. I dread to think what might have happend if it wasn't essentially adopted by the GCR.

Point of the matter is, while I agree it would be better in the national collection in theory, reality unfrotunately shows that with the NRM it's not quite as secure a postion to be in as one would like to think. And to put it another way, the NRM has a VERY large collection under it's supervision, with so many locomotives that a god number of them get put aside and get little to no attention. Fine engines like 563 are repeatedly overlooked and given little to no attention, with all their focus really only being on the small number of locos that draw crowds into their museum (namely Mallard, Evening Star and Duchess of Hamilton). At a heritage railway however, few have anywhere near as many items under their care as the NRM, and therefore can give unique and histoic locomotives like the T3 far more consideration and hold it in great esteem. At NRM, the T3 has clearly not been valued all that much apart from usage in a theatre tour. At the Swanage Railway, it'll be a priceless asset, a star for their railway to take full advantage of.

Finally I can't really agree with your last point, for having it on loan would hinder the locomotive's future in operation, forcing the railway to make careful repairs and patch up jobs for the sake of "conserving originality of material". They would also have limitations to when and how the engine can be operated, and just make running such an old yet capable engine effectively and in a worthwhile manner. Under a loan, they wouldn't be able to do as they see fit really at all.

Though that said, there are some exceptions I've noticed, as the MHR have maintained Cheltenham and Lord Nelson to a high standard with few strings attached from the NRM it seems. Same can be said for Oliver Cromwell and Sir Lamiel. Though what with the NRM's recent actions of late, I wouldn't put it past them that this is for a good reason... that they have done this for they are effectively all but officially wiping their hands clean from these engines, and that they are all but in name their owners and carers now.

 

I would hope, though we don't know about it, that there has been some kind of tender process. Presumably points given for correct historical setting, stability of finances and volunteer input, security of storage...and perhaps for requirement ie not already in possession of a large fleet of unusual locomotives. After all this is an asset with a market value, so it is a considerable gift. I would also assume that in gifting rather than loaning, as well as allowing the recipient railway to make more complete repairs, in order to return the loco to reliable service, as has been mentioned, perhaps also it makes fund-raising easier.

I think everyone wishes the Swanage Railway well and are excited by the idea of this loco possibly running there but it would be useful if the NRM could put out a statement to answer people's questions. To me the key questions are

If this loco is considered a duplicate, then it has been so for many many years, why is it being disposed of now?
Why is it being gifted rather than loaned? and
Does this signal a change of policy? and
Will there there be more anouncements in the near future?
What are the criteria used to chose where it goes? and specifically
Why did the Swanage Railway get it now despite a lack of undercover display space?

 

The criteria seems to be moving duplicate locos to locations appropriate to their origins , NSR and TVR 0-6-2t's being the previous donations, thee being duplicated by the Coal Tank I imagine. Covered accommodation does not seem to be a consideration as I don't think either of these will necessarily have dedicated undercover accommodation.

It's interesting to speculate what will be next, my guess earlier was a GNR Atlantic (who wouldn't like to ride behind one of them?) and I'd also guess KOYLI.

 

Funnily enough didn't somebody say recently that 0-6-2's weren't well represented in preservation??

 

The Coal Tank isn't part of the National Collection though. (It's owned by the National Trust, an entirely separate organisation).

Tom

 

I have a lot of sympathy with your view JMJR. I guess it's a trade-off between (a) the most appropriate display, care and use of the artefact, versus (b) the need to ensure that the country's most precious artefacts are given statutory protection.

There is a "Spectrum of Preciousness" that should help to determine whether an artefact (loco or other item) should be conserved and/or given statutory protection forever. At one end of the spectrum are our most ancient and fragile locos such as Rocket and Sans Pareil. Quite clearly these need to be conserved and protected under law for current and future generations. At the other end of the spectrum are class 08 shunters and Mark One coaches, which have entered preservation for their utility rather than any historic significance, and which can be discarded when they are no longer useful.

563 is perhaps not as precious, and certainly not as fragile, as Rocket or Sans Pareil, but (IMO) it is precious enough to warrant formal protection. At the same time, it is a rare example of a Victorian locomotive that could, potentially, be restored to operate in something like its original condition without destroying most of its fabric. This is an attractive proposition, and even a sympathetic display at Swanage would be better than gathering dust at Shildon. So, assuming that Swanage has the resources to look after it in perpetuity then this has to be a good move for the loco and for the public.

As for the NRM, I don't know what the drivers are for thinning out the collection, but (IMO) they are showing an alarming lack of appreciation of railway history by de-accessioning this particular locomotive rather than one of the other 4-4-0s. 563 and the NER 4-4-0 are both very old locos in something like their original condition, unlike City of Truro, the Midland Compound and 30120 which are later designs that have been heavily rebuilt.

Perhaps the thinning of the collection is part of a NRM masterplan to improve the quality of their displays at the expense of quantity. If so it would be nice if they could share that plan.

 

Swanage Railway Company is not a PLC, never was and highly unlikely ever to be. The Swanage Railway Trust that owns, wholly, the Swanage Railway Company, is a fiercely defended 'one member, one vote' organisation.

Southern Locomotives Ltd, is NOT a charity.

563 is safeguarded should any aspect of the Swanage Railway Company or Trust, fail.

 

I agree, save that if everyone said the same about MK1s or 08s, there would come a point where they were as historically important as 563. The fate of the Passenger pigeon occurs.


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Assuming the party who has acquired the loco is indeed the charity (the SRT), then that entity is subject to the Companies Act, the Charities Act, various other acts affecting companies generally, and a few recommended practices including financial reporting. As a company, the SRT can become insolvent, and its assets disposed of to meet debts, but by operating the railway through a subsidiary, they limit the liabilities to which the SRT is exposed, which is the main protection from insolvency. By the terms of its constitutional documents (I suspect), and as a company limited by guarantee, the proprietors have no direct financial interest e.g. they can't pay themselves dividends. Section 42 of the Companies Act 2006 also provides charities with greater protection than non-charities against improper disposal of assets. Charities however can go off the rails in a number of ways e.g. a forceful personality on the board surrounded by a number of passive directors, and absent any warning signs, the NRM can presumably only go by track record. It does seem though that the NRM is determined to slim down its collection which is probably inevitable but may indeed mean that artifacts are more accessible. I don't know what the NRM means by "public domain", which is a term more commonly used in connection with copyright - and clearly many assets of the NRM/Science Museum are not in the public domain in copyright terms e.g. the railway posters. Presumably they intend it to mean that the recipient is not, or is not owned by, one or a group of private individuals, and has some remit to allow public access at some times, whether free or paid for.

 

If there is duplication in the National Collection, I think you could make a much stronger case for de-accessioning the T9 than 563 - how many similar inside cylinder 4-4-0s are there to tell that story? How many outside cylinder ones? Plus the conservation aspect is less pressing in the case of the T9, as it has routinely run already in modern times.

Tom

 

So here's a radical idea.

Let's only have a 'virtual' National Railway Museum, with ALL exhibits 'out placed' in locations relevant to the exhibit.......

We are blessed with an incredible heritage Railway movement in the UK that has worked wonders. So let's use the national collection of treasures to help it further.

We are much more likely to reach a wider audience that way.

Robin

 

As far as I'm aware the Taff Vale 0-6-2T is still part of the National Collection but loaned out.