Preservation or Pastiche

Um, no, because they weren't ever claiming to be reproducing the past. You appear to be missing the point of this thread.

Almost all of the above is wrong. There is no reason why most SG heritage railways couldn't use correct operating practices and accurate signalling for circa the 1950-65 period that usually matches the age of most of the stock. This is quite clearly shown by the fact that a number of railways do indeed manage to do so. Look at the SVR, for example, or the SDR, Or the Bo'ness & Kinneil.

 

Locomotives carrying an express headcode to saunter along at 25mph always gets me.

I agree with the opinion that all preserved railways are a pastiche to a greater or lesser extent. They can't not be because they can never truly 'recreate' the past, only provide - as far as is possible - an approximation of it within the parameters of what contemporary society (a) permits in terms of facilities and health.safety and (b) will cope with in order to keep coming and spending money.

In addition, while I rather like the practice of recreating the ambience of different 'eras' at different stations along a line, no passenger in the pre-preservation era ever got on at Station A in 1910 and alighted at Station C in 1964.

Although it's doubtful if passengers ever travelled on it in a rake of teak stock hauled by a 15xx pannier tank, passing a Class 50 hauling a rake of Stanier stock, in 1950-1965...

 

or Traveled on a GW branch line behind a pacific, most likely it would have been 2 coaches and a pannier. Most likely with everything around them in a run down condition and they would have been one of a handful of travelers , People visit railways now, to be transported back to a time most of them never knew, granddad may have traveled it once, but its not the same, you can't recreate the past, you can re create a snapshot of what it may have been, but at the same time your only a step away from the modern age. every thing will always be a comprimise between what is commercial ( pays the bills) and what is true to history.

 

I recall an article in Railway Modeller, over 40 years ago, on how to bugg...... modify your PECO streamline with a triangular file.

 

Well put.

To dismiss all of preservation as Pastiche is both unfair to serious preservationists, and a misuse of the word. Preservationsists go to great lengths to faithfully restore and recreate stations, rolling stock and lineside items to represent a past era. Compromises have to be made, but nobody would call the KWVR vintage train, or Bewdley signal box, a Pastiche. There are plenty of examples of Pastiche within the preservation world. Here are a few:

• Locos with liveries from a previous era that they never carried, e.g. LNER 2005.
• Carriages in elaborate liveries from an earlier era (e.g. former DMU units on the Torbay line).
• Portacabins with fancy awnings to make them look like old railway buildings.
• Fake signals
• Industrial locos in main line liveries.
• Saddletanks converted to side tanks or tender locos.

... and no doubt many more examples.

Not all the above are evil (although I have a particular dislike for the disfiguring of industrial locos). The Torbay DMU carriages would look quite wrong in their authentic liveries, for example. Sometimes a bit of Pastiche is needed to create the right feeling.

 

The fact that the clock cannot be turned back in every respect is no excuse for giving up and just providing a steam train ride. There is an educational aspect to running a museum and a steam railway is a working museum. Each have their own niche, the KWVR offer a great 1950s branch line experience, the Mid Hants a 50s/60s cross country line (it was used for diversions so Bulleid Pacifics are not out of place) and the SVR is big enough to offer a variety of scenarios.

I see the comment about a 1500 pannier on the teaks but at galas they attempt to keep the locos and stock matched as far as the timetable will allow. I remember a fellow photographer whinging because one of the guest locos, the School's, had been matched with the teak set. With no LNER engine present I asked if he had a better idea as what I could see was a fair representation of a through train from the LNER to the south coast. I believe there was a Doncaster to Margate seasonal through train for a few years in the 30s. I also remember seeing Sir Keith Park on the teaks carrying the S&D headcode, converted to b/w it could have been the Cleethorpes - Exeter that was Eastern stock on alternate days.

 

The irony is that all the K&WVR stations (bar Oakworth) are portrayed as BR (LMR) stations now but were actually BR (NER) stations so only Oakworth is anywhere near correct. Tangerine signs anyone?

 

I think it was LMR until 1958

 

Is a portacabin with a fancy awning better or worse than a portacabin without an awning? Is a portacabin(with or without awning) better or worse than no building at all?

What saddletank has been converted to a tender loco?

Not disputing your comments, just curious.

 

Certainly this one - maybe others, I don't know.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/70607220@N04/22886707799

(Not my photo).

Tom

 

Getting into a compartment full of tobacco smoke.....

 

i didnt mind pipe smoke, , but it was the debris from numerous past commuters that use to get me, papers, magazines, the odd half eaten sandwich,

 

As the person posing the original question on the WSR thread, perhaps I should clarify my meaning.

There is indeed tremendous restoration work on many railways, with huge effort to deliver authenticity. Sometimes regulatory changes compromise the outcome, sometimes the fundamentally different nature of a busy preserved railway compared to the pre closure operation. I would not charge pastiche there.

However, there then comes the much more vexed question of economic operation of the railway. Decisions are taken to, for example, use modern flat bottom CWR in place of the original jointed bullhead rails - except in stations. Or to start using diesels so as to allow stock shunting to be quicker, easier, and cheaper. Or dress staff in "period" uniforms, yet use thermally printed tickets. All are examples pertinent to railways I am an armchair member of.

These are not "bad" decisions, but they represent points in a shift from "authentic" operation towards set dressing of something that is actually a modern operation in period garb.

My question is about where the boundary is crossed into a form of pastiche.

 

I would add buffet cars on branch lines to the list.

PH

 

large, non historicallycorrect engines, non historically correct Post closure coaching stock, station buffets, where none exsisted before, platform extensions, foot bridges, any thing added post closure ? how about those Paul? enlarging your own view, the bluebell should run just from Sheffield Park to Horstead keynes, only run terriers and P classes, on 1930 maunsel coaches painted rail blue?

 

The boundary was crossed when they became a heritage railway.

The "authenticity" you seek went out the window when the (closed) local branch line suddenly gained huge car parks, modern engineering facilities, shops, buffet cars, express engines, rolling stock which never ran together, thousands of passengers, etc etc.

The cost of providing and maintaining "authentic" elements (eg, Edmondson card tickets, and the loss of valuable sales and marketing data from this) has to be balanced with the financial benefits which allow for more/better rolling stock being restored and operated, longer operating lines, or - at the basic level - the heritage railway being able to continue to operate as a viable concern.

Richard

 

Tim's post (#8) throws up an interesting point. There's NO arguing that the W&L Pickerings are anything but superb, but the ex-ZB balcony stock, which raises so many hackles, has now served the line for far longer than it's original stock. Generations of visitors have known these vehicles, which are now as identified as firmly with the W&L as it's chunky BP tanks.

To satiate the appetites of traditionalists, there are the original locos, freight stock and repro carriages, but the line has grown way beyond the passenger market for which it was first equipped. Does that make it pastiche? Perhaps, by some interpretation, but it isn't the line of 1903. It never will be again. The verdict of hard reality on that operation came in decades ago.

Leaving aside any charge of "Little Englander" thinking (albeit in Wales), consider that the preserved W&L has evolved it's own identity over five and a half decades of preserved operations, and is consequently well suited to the task it now performs.

 

I think you've missed the point, the Bluebell scores top marks in recreating a past age in the 21st century, a few pre grouping coaches with the H Tank on the front could be anywhere in the South East, it will bring back memories for those of us who remember the Westerham branch as a child.

 

Something has to be reasonably correct somewhere or else the requirements for educational charity status are only being met marginally. The profits from successful gift shops and catering are vital towards the finances. Thus shops and cafes are okay for me even if, as in one case I know, twice as many staff are employed in the gift shop as ran the entire station pre-Preservation!

However, once the train comes in, let it be a reasonably plausible branch line train if we are on an erstwhile branch line. One way of avoiding pastiche is to avoid buffet cars.

PH