Repton

It's all down to how you were brought up I think. I was lucky living in SE London I got all four Groups locos on my doorstep but being a mile from the SE main line I saw Schools on the Hastings and Kent coast trains all the time.

 

Who nicked the bogie off Repton?

 

it was there when we left Whitby Gov, honestly when we turned left at Grosmont, it must have gone straight on

 

Probably me... try to stop the damn thing....

Better try to fix Truro. Apparently I've taken two from that by accident too!

 

Repton yesterday morning.

 

I take it you don't approve of Repton being on the Moors then?

 

Its not the case of approve - preservation is what it is and many engines are now seen miles away from areas they originally ran in, and events have seen Repton find a home at the NYMR. Most people travelling by train at the Moors will enjoy their ride out, regardless of which engine is on the front. For them, its an nice steam engine, that sound like others, and does the job. They have a nice time and Repton get them to where they want to be.

But as we start to know more of a subject and develop a preference, we form our own views. Mine is normally based on history, appearance, engineering and abilities and doubtless others with a different opinion would contest my views. I find that there are other engines out there more interesting and that I like more than Repton, but then I find most Southern engines out there lag behind other regions in terms of their appearance, ability and engineering, something that changed with the arrival of Bulleid.

None of this is to detract from the excellent standard by which Repton has been out-shopped from Grosmont after its overhaul. The standard by which the engine has been completed is incredible and makes it easy to see why some think it would be good, or possible, for it to go mainline. Ive said before that recently the standard of work done seems to have improved considerably when you look at how hard engines are worked and how good engines return to steam after overhaul, such as 76079.

However, Repton is returning to the Moors, obviously to the delight of some and no doubt will become an active part of the home fleet. Personally, there are other engines out there that I have more interest in and that Id rather see there, including some that would be thought of as foreign, being from miles away. Its just that as someone who visits and notes whats happening and as well as enjoys my photography the Southern hiatus (being Repton and S15) has been a small guilty pleasure.

 

You are not alone in having this sort of attitude to Southern engines. But you are quite wrong! Appearance is subjective and up to you. But in engineering terms and ability to do the job required, Maunsell delivered excellent engines which did (generally) just what was required of them. He did it quietly and without fuss, because he was an engineer and a gentleman and not a self-publicist.

 

Just compare a Southern D1/E1. 4-4-0 with the less than impressive similar sized LMS 2P. They were rebuilt from the SECR D and E class but were essentially new engines and I can remember them as an 11 year old spotter roaring through my local station at Grove Park on the long climb to Knockholt Summit with heavy Kent Coast expresses.

 

David,
I can't fault your historical argument and appearance will always be subjective but you fall down flat when it comes to considering engineering and ability. The Schools is well engineered and will do the job with no problem and it is only its limited adhesion that keeps it below a Black 5 in the ability stakes. Not so the Maunsell S15, which is streets ahead of a Black 5 and B1 in ability. The Southern had some bloody good locos, generally well ahead of most locos the LNER could muster. And I'm NE, born & bred.

 

Each to their own but if it burns coal and boils water, it's OK by me. The NYMR is a great place to see and hear locos hard at work no matter which railway company they originated from. We all have our favourites but to dismiss Repton on perceived failings of engineering and ability shows a total lack of understanding of what the class did in SR/BR traffic. Do a bit more research young man.

 

.... but no blue A4's :-(

 

Getting back to the subject of Repton, and Maunsell locos in particular, it has to be remembered that many of the Southern freight locos, in the summer had to be pressed into passenger use on the many additional summer timetable trains, Engines such as the S15, had to be in effect mixed traffic, whilst a freight design capable of being used on passenger work also. that is why some classes received the Southern Green lined livery, not the freight black, to in effect show these were in reality not just a freight class. were they rated as 6F by BR?

 

The S15s were indeed 6F but there were some anomalies on the Southern. The similar sized King Arthur's were only 5P and the U and U1 2-6-0s 4P/3F rather than 4MT, the N/N1 class again of similar size were 4P/5F. The Maunsell 2-6-0s were used on passenger trains extensively on the SE section on summer Saturdays and I can remember them hammering through Bromley South before electrification with very heavy trains, some being inter regional workings formed of LMR stock. The Chief Running Foreman at Stewarts Lane, Fred Pankhurst, had the unenviable task of providing locomotives for this work, often of unsuitable standard, and then persuading the drivers to take them on. For this reason the Maunsell 2-6-0s were often referred to as Pankys Pacifics at the Lane.

 

Pankhurst had a knack of persuading footplatemen to take on unsuitable engines and get the best out of them. There's a tale of a driver complaining to him about being given a knackered D15 (I think) for a top link job. "Ah, but Sid. Remember what you did with them twenty years ago." And Sid, his ego massaged, went away happy and got a good day's work out of the engine.

 

While I very much respect the views and knowledge of people like Spamcan81 and Steve (who I think have much considerable knowledge and understanding) my own views are based on research and what I have seen myself in an era of preservation – as much as I’d like to get my blue box and bow tie to go and see things for real in an age where they were all running, all the time.

I do take the view that in engineering terms Southern designs were lacking and rightly or wrongly still stand by my opinion. To me, most engines (as described above) were underpowered and their designs were behind. You can see the build quality of engines like Repton and S15, where rivets mounted into the smokebox area look massive, when other companies had moved away from this. The half cab on the two engines again makes the design look like it came out of the 1910’s rather than 20 years later. The cab roof doesn’t extend over the main footplate and the low tender exposes the crew too. While some engine had low tenders, these again were built many years before, most like the North East and Western designs being about 20 years previous. Comparable engines to S15 include the LNER B16 and the Western 47xx, being of the same time build and duty and I think these would easily out-perform a S15. Sadly for me a B16 is something I’ll never see.

Repton again while powerful for a 4-4-0, again looks quaint, but in design terms looks dated. Hence everyone’s immediate response to compare the engine to Truro as the outlines are similar despite Truros age against Repton. The reason for the 4-4-0 design was due to shorter turntables where these engines were to operate, and the boilers cut down for loading gauge while clever is really immaterial. Here, the comparison should be made to engines again of the same duty and age, regardless of any issues with infrastructure. So I’d compare it to a D49, which has same cylinders, but better cab for crew, a higher range due to tender, and pretty much identical tractive effort at full boiler pressure (often quoted 21,556 lb is at 85% (See LNER Info for source)). I know the D49 is listed as 4P and Schools as 5, but cant help but think that the routes and gradients down south were a lot less harsh than those done in Scotland and the North East and thus it is almost derated to avoid trouble. If not for D49, other similar classes would be the B17 and the Hall to ignore the infrastructure issue and offer a direct copy in terms of time and duty. Even against the Lord Nelson, engines like Raven A2, Gresley A3 and a Castle would leave the Southern engine behind.

At this point, being about the 1920s – Id put forward the view that the Western region were out in front in terms of design, evolution, standardisation and performance. North Eastern had some excellent designs at the time of grouping coming to the fore. It leaves me with the view that engines like Repton today are liked by others and seem quaint even if it does the duty required of it, but falls short of the potential that it could have had and thus in my view are not as good as other engines that could be there and could do the same job.

 

That's an awful lot in defence of North-eastern area locos but you obviously know little about the reality of the D49's. (One of my favourite classes, BTW, but only from a stand and look point.) Have a read through what the LNER Encyclopedia has to say about them and you will soon see that they weren't the best of Gresley's efforts. https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d49.php
I'd also pit an S15 against any version of a B16, any day, and B16's didn't have the most comfortable or ergonomic of cabs, either.

 

That's true what your saying about D49, it wasn't the best, but its the obvious comparison for a Schools class as your looking at one 4-4-0 against another. I would say the direct comparison would be B17 vs Schools as they were designed for the same job.

I know the NER Cab wasn't the most ergonomic, but it developed to become the LNER standard, on designs like B17, J39. That said I think B16 would easily out perform an S15 and in terms of build quality, durability and reliability, which all factor into my view on its engineering the B16 is for me a clear winner.

I will defend North Eastern engines as I think that they have always been towards the fore-front of design. I think this continued to some extend from Darlington's office during LNER, but equally so that the Western region also led and pushed forwards this thinking in design, quality and performance - to me that also explains the leap in performance of the Midland upon Staniers arrival, but again to me show that Southern designs were lacking aesthetics, underpowered, dated in design, without crew protection and lacked range. So while some crews might have been able to coax some performance out of them and get them to somehow do the duty required I think they fall short of what they could have been, where as other engines and regions achieved what was required with a balanced design easily capable of what was needed. That Southern tried to copy and ask for such designs speaks volumes, but give me a B16 anyday and don't ask me what Id personally do with Repton and that S15.

Still each to their own.

Please remember that this is just my view of the class and my own preferences and that such views are in no way a reflection on the work that Grosmont have done to turn out the engine after its overhaul. I am very impressed with such an achievement and have said so before - but don't want my views to be taken on the class as a reflection on their work on Repton.

 

Are there any more photos of Repton around? She looks super shiny in the photo above, and it would be nice to see how she looks from some other angles.

I've always been a fan… very nicely proportioned in my opinion.

Simon

 

Really? I don't recall hearing of any such case of copying/borrowing, what did you have in mind?