61994 Great Marquess

In this instance, there is no "right", as any predictions of what would've happened had JC not purchased the K4 can be nothing more than speculation. What is known is that there were other parties interested in purchasing and restoring the K4, so I don't think it's a given that it would've ended up static at Highley.

 

At the end of the day the future of ANY locomotive depends on the choice between 2 options :

(a) overhaul the locomotive, run it on main line duty and hope that the income generated is sufficient to fund the next overhaul

(b) commit the locomotive to a secure site, pay rent and rates on the property and occasionally replace those rusting parts that are normally out of sight.

Either way there is a cost and the owner has to make decisions regarding future options. JC has chosen his options and - as the owner - he is the one funding that choice hence his is the only opinion that matters. Disagree if you must BUT remember that he who pays the piper calls the tune; JC is that funder.

 

Whilst bearing in mind that JC received what would seem to have been very fair offers to repair and keep both locos operational. His locos, his choice but a shame nonetheless that he's chosen to retire them.

 

I disagree with that. When it comes to historic artefacts of national interest the general public should have a say. There is no difference in principle between, for example, a work of art, a building of architectural or other importance, or a locomotive. The important difference at present is that public policy has evolved over time to deal with artworks and buildings but not yet items of engineering.

 

I don't think we would be quite so outspoken if it were not for the fact that 61994 is a unique locomotive and much loved.

In any event, I have already made the comparison to David Shepherd. I've written to the magazines and had letters published on this topic. I understand the battle is lost. I will retire. But not without some sadness that I will never see the K4 steam again.

 

It does not seem probable Highley would have been a lasting fate if JC had not stepped in. The previous owner had a clear mind to dispose and there was no shortage of suitors. That would have been the case at any time a sale was desired so it is a bit disingenuous to suggest JC was the only option, good job though he has subsequently done with the K4.
JC will not be able to take it with him to the next life but he is making damn sure nobody else get to experience the pleasure he has had from sharing a working K4 with the nation nor even site it at a place to yield maximum access as an exhibit. That is a very sad outcome.

 

Indeed, there are provisions around these. But as the locomotive will remain within the UK, will be on public display, and will be conserved, that provides for the same level of protection that between them the listed building and export control regimes provide.

On other threads, there have been discussions about recent deaccessions by the NRM. If we take (slightly simplistically) what the NRM can fund as being representative of the availability of public money to support the say of the general public, then I question the preservation value of the say of the general public.

 

I wonder what 4472s current fate would be if it hadn't come into possession of the NRM and an open ended public cheque? There is an argument that with continuous use sooner or later a locomotive will be run into the ground almost beyond salvation - there was an end of life back in the day after all. It seems evident that 4472 had reached that point, and doubtless other younger locomotives will reach it sooner or later. If some locomotives in reasonable condition are retired for a few decades will future generations be unhappy - and what will they think if this generation runs everything into the ground?

Oh, and are all out of service LNER locomotives as well conserved as these two are going to be? Or are some of them, like some from other companies - in desperate need of TLC they are not getting?

 

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand I do think it's a shame that the Cameron of Balbuthie (to give him his proper title) has chosen to stuff and mount two very sound engines, but on the other hand they are his to with as he pleases, they're not going to be exported or scrapped or run into the ground the way Scotsman was or allowed to rot away on a siding somewhere, and with any luck his museum will boost tourism and jobs in a part of Scotland where those things are in short supply. Most importantly, had it not been for Cameron we would have lost an A4, a beavertail saloon, and several industrials. We owe him for that at least.

 

Not counting 48158 I can't think of any LNER engines which have had a hard time in preservation. Most are either in service, or undergoing overhaul, or safely under cover. The LNER may be comparatively poorly represented but compared with many surviving engines from the other companies those LNER machines which are still around are generally in good hands.

 

I really do think that people need to take a long hard look at some of what they have written, calm down and apologise.

John Cameron is one of the greats of railway preservation. There may well be some on here who know what he has achieved whereas than others can only surmise, but as along standing member of the Scotrail Board, I suspect (and as I say, I equally suspect others will know) just what a massive contribution he has made over the years, and no doubt what involvement he has had with enabling the The Jacobite to become the hugely enjoyable success it has grown to.

He has owned the A4 for more than have its life, and I am pretty sure more than half his own. What he is planning is a private museum to keep the locomotives in secure protection where he can enjoy them - none of us can have any clue what the long term plans are. There are a few current mainline regulars which, if this forum had existed 30 or 40 years ago, would have been the subject of moans, complaints and telling people what to do with their property 'because they will never run again' - but they have done and are doing!

Railway preservation owes a great deal to John and the least we can do is treat his wishes and plans for his property with respect and gratitude for the enjoyment he has enabled us all to have with them over the years.

Steven

 

Happy to endorse that Steven and respect the right to decide as Mr Cameron wishes. It does not lessen the sadness or regret that he has not made a different choice for the K4 especially. I cannot see anything fundamentally wrong in expressing such melancholy and don't think it is disrespectful to do so.

 

Many of my best railway memories feature 61994 prominently, not least the sight and sound of the K4 romping over the West Highland Extension on the October 2014 bash. Will we ever see this sight again? Who knows, but the railway enthusiast community owes a huge deal of gratitude to a man who has frequently provided his engines at cost to entirely 'gricer' based events (think three green A4's at Shildon, K4 on the 2014 Bash, etc). If you ever have the opportunity to have a chat with Mr Cameron I'm sure you would leave with the impression that he is man who thoroughly loves steam and desires nothing but the best for his locomotives. Whilst I would much rather hear and see 61994 and 60009 in action rather than lifeless in a museum, it is difficult to imagine how Mr Cameron could have constructed a more secure future for both locos; held within their own registered charity which will operate out of a fully-funded museum that allows public access for decades to come.

Who are we to predict how the trustees of the Cameron Railway Trust might act in 15 years time? I hope one lesson that the entire enthusiast community takes from this to 'enjoy it whilst it lasts'; not least so with 60009.

 

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A point not considered by many posters is that John Cameron is obviously well aware of his options - and that includes the sale of his locomotives to another owner / operator BUT he may be minded to recall the history of Flying Scotsman. Whilst not seeking to disparage reputations it is said that the sale of Flying Scotsman to Tony Marchington was a retrograde step that seriously affected the locomotive's potential. As the proud owner it may be worth considering that John Cameron feels that the locomotives would have a better future as display items in a secure museum building rather than be poorly treated as an operating locomotive where the priority is to keep it running rather than keep it in "good order". I do not say that such would be the case given current offers that have been reported but it is a fate that John Cameron may be looking to avoid - especially whilst it is in his gift to influence the future of both locomotives.

 

Bear something in mind. A steam locomotive needs to either wash its face or have a benefactor to keep it operational. On a slightly different scale, a museum has to do the same thing. if the museum/heritage centre doesn't attract the visitors and there are no benefactors it will close and its assets will be disposed of, charitable trust or not. Whilst no one should want a project to fail, never say never.

 

Are you going to take him to court?

 

Honestly - it's not as if the loco is going to be cut up. The hysteria that some on here whip up about other people's property is ludicrous.

 

This is part of my fundamental problem with capitalism and the notion of property (not that I regard communism as a solution, more that there needs to be a democratic system of checks and balances). Cameron's had the K4 for 14 years and treats it like it's his right to dictate what happens to it, even though others have made generous offers to fund its ongoing operation? Rejecting all offers on the basis that the locos WILL be retired to Balbuthie permanently as is HIS right - well, frankly, it stinks of narcissism and an ego that has allowed itself to become inflated because nobody has ever said "No, John!" to him. I do not wish in any way to denigrate his indubitably significant contribution to preservation, but I think it's time for him to show some David Shepherd-style humility and admit that the locomotives need to be taken on by younger generations. There are others far better-placed than I to do so, but I would still happily contribute some time and effort on e.g. running social media for the locos.