Trawsfynydd and Blaenau Ffestiniog Railway

I have considered it and I think it's relevant in terms of your attitude towards the topic at hand that you've not said on what grounds they were 'negative'.

They no doubt felt they had perfectly valid reasons to be what you perceived as being 'negative' towards you extending your house? By the general tone of your posts, it doesn't sound that sympathy towards the views of others, or indeed any willingness to listen to them, comes particularly high up your list of priorities.

Sounds rather more to me like "I want this... and if you don't agree then I'm right and you're just being 'negative'."

 

Whilst the Welsh language is being promoted here, can I ask if it is still the case that very few Welsh people are involved in Welsh Heritage Railways and is this the case with this new project?

 

....tasty too! I'm rather fond of mutton.... when not dressed as lamb.

Sorry, but I'm a tad mystified. Paul's and my posts may share a phrase, but the overall thrust of our respective arguments is scarcely similar in this case.

 

Sorry Howard but this really is neat WIBN. Cold shower indicated!

I "was there" at the time of the extension from Sylfaen to Raven Square. This did not produce the expected vast increase in business but it did introduce a stonkingly difficult stretch of line to work. Those who talk about how difficult their lines are will not have to operate a mile of 1 in 29 topped off by multiple check railed reverse curves or, a little further on, 1 in 33 up changing abruptly to 1 in 33 down.

This is a middle class holiday area where visitors have their own transport and are not really fussed as to where the terminus is. They just go to it. Raven Square gave the opportunity though, for more adequate car parking and terminal facilities. I understand there are other places whose extensions have not produced a sea change in visitor numbers, at least in the longer term.

Now to return to our T & B muttons. I know the area reasonably well, having driven along the closely adjoining road on several occasions. Not my sort 0f scenery I am afraid. It may be fine for others.

Paul H

 

I think you are somewhat missing my point. I'm not making any comment one way or the other about the viability and scenic delights of the T&BFR, not being very familiar with the area; simply that grants and gift aid can only be a small supplement to the financial model: they don't magically make it viable.

As for the issue of whether heritage railways can be part of a wider regeneration: I think there is lots of evidence that they provide cashable benefits to the communities they run through. That is not the same though as saying that that automatically makes them attractive prospects for regional aid investment. Such investment is scarce (and likely to become scarcer) and even if I held the purse strings to such a fund, I'd want to know not only "does a heritage railway generate return on such investment" but "is a heritage railway providing the best return on such investment?" I'm not sure that the case is made.

Tom

 

Definitely a few in Herefordshire and one location often mentioned in logs of train performance on the Marches line, Pontrilas, is also in Herefordshire in spite of its very Welsh-sounding name.

 

Again folks, the whole thrust of my ramblings is more about the broader economy in North Wales and upping the overall number of visitors across the wider area. I'd agree with Tom that it's tricky to quantify a line's contribution (more especially for projections when a line doesn't yet exist), though somehow that doesn't stop figures for the cash value of any line being trotted out from time to time. The finite nature of any funding is a 'known', though across the board, some projects (I'm thinking "railway vs non-railway" here) will inevitably benefit from sources unavailable to others. I think my own position is pretty clear, that I can only see a viable operation on the T&BF in terms of development of the overall leisure sector to create a healthier economy, which is a view I stand by.

I note too that Paul's comment about the W&L doesn't extend to any suggestion to abandon the eastern end of the line! On a personal note, the former operation to Sylfaen only was what put the mockers on any chance of me travelling on the line. Without a car, it was simply too hard to reach when we were based in Barmouth. I can't comment on today's bus services, but in the 70's, Llanfair Caereinion wasn't easily reached on none too frequent (or rapid) Crossville services. Motorists may indeed form the overwhelming majority, but to simply write off those of us without cars as an irrelevance doesn't sit terribly well at all. Put simply, a visit to most lines by public transport takes some planning and call me weird, but feeling I'm being treated as in some way second class isn't going to attract my custom.

If it's considered we've collectively reached the end of any growth, that nothing further is or will be possible, then Bob Help Us All. We might as well batten down the hatches right now!

 

There won't be a single line "rescued" since 1950 that does not still have plenty of things for people to do. They have to meet their revenue costs somehow or another and despite wishful thinking they are not public transport undertakings but in the tourist industry. Gricer's WIBN is just not enough.

 

The notion that a heritage railway can ever be "finished" is one I'd class along with the idea (mostly held by men, be it noted!) that once a room has been hoovered, it somehow won't ever need doing again. The battle to keep lines running is one which can never be won, but can all too easily be lost..... and let's not overlook that pretty much every heritage line now running started out as a WIBN. About the only exceptions are operations such as the Great Whipsnade Railway and arguably the VoR plus the unique situation of the Isle of Man lines. The Great Orme and Snowdon operations I'd class as WIBN .... just ones that happen to have stood the test of time.

Regarding revenue streams, the heritage movement has come a long way. The number of ways income can be developed is as diverse as the nature of the lines themselves. While I completely accept the point that extending lines for extension's sake is crazy, I equally don't accept the premise that anything is settled in stone for all time.

It's easy (and for some, preferable) to forget that several schemes were stillborn, either falling at the planning or fundraising stage. Given the proliferation of lines since "Dolgoch" first wheezed out of Wharf station over six and a half decades ago, it's remarkable the number of failures once a scheme is up and running has been as low as it has. NG installations at locations such as Knebworth aside, most problems have occured as a result of schemes being in the way of grand redevelopment schemes.

There's that old showman's saying "If you build it they will come", but it's a gross oversimplification. There's always a need to market a line in a competative leisure sector. The competition, away from the clinically addicted rail enthusiast, being the appeal of all options across the board.

It's worth remembering there comes a point where it's impossible to differentiate cautious consolidation from outright stagnation ..... which is as damaging as overreaching ambition. Success lies in finding the balance between these extremes.

 

I think that there was an enclave or exclave of England in Wales or vice versa and maybe still is, although I imagione the map was tidied up long ago..

 

There is "detached Flintshire" (Maelor Saesneg in Welsh I believe)

PH

 

and I think it was Time Team who described Pembrokeshire as "Little England beyond Wales" as it was settled by the English who arrived by sea bypassing most of South Wales altogether. It's a great country

 

It was detached from the rest of Flintshire but bordered on one side by Denbighshire, so contrary to popular belief and the claims of LTC Rolt in a couple of his books, it was not detached from Wales.

That said, until 1974 Monmouthshire, depending upon whom you believed and which piece of legislation you looked at, was neither in Wales nor England, or was in both Wales and England, or was in Wales, or was in England, or was partly in Wales and partly in England. A lot of official documents referred to "Wales and Monmouthshire", and the old coat of arms of the county featured a Welsh dragon and an English lion.

 

i seem to recall the Welsh border sign on the M4 used to be well west of the Severn Bridge, common sense would say the Severn should be the border, as it indeed is now it seems

 

I think that name predates Time Team, but it is very true - it was settled by the Anglo-Normans very early on. I have to admit I can't recall whether that was before Gerald Of Wales was writing.

 

On the second road bridge (the current M4) the road signs are some distance after the bridge in both directions - eastbound, there are separate "Welcome to England" signs on the M4 and M49 after the M49 junction.

The first road bridge (the former M4, now the M48) is entirely in England - the border is at the Wye bridge. If you look at Beachley army barracks, on the spit between the two rivers crossed by the motorway, all the houses have very very tall telly aerials to make sure they can get English telly.

 

True story: the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act 1953 placed Newport in England and the rest of the county in Wales.

 

@ Reading General. The passengers, would respectfully disagree. You have to have a length of line that gives them feeling like they've had their money's worth. And no amount of atmosphere, history, or locomotives will ever please them, if your line is only a couple of hundred yards long.

As far as the majority of Wales is concerned, we have neither. That is a shame on the UK, and has to be addressed.

And you threw out the disclaimer that you're not a cyclist, so I can't berate you much for not knowing cycle shops have sadly, crashed, they are literally dying in America and Europe since 2000 for a combination of reasons, not ignoring the recession and online shopping. And Sustrans (the organisation) are not to be conflated with actual cyclists. Name 10 routes that are original paths that Sustrans are not hoarding from railway routes lost. Name 10 routes that Sustrans have relinquished to private firms to reinstate the lines when the demand for them has returned and is economical, and in line with their "policy". You won't find any such charity (irony). Let's sum them up as an unruly and hypocritical lot.

@DisusedBranch. First off, its not just myself that's noticed the problem.

And second... are you seriously addressing me personally in RL there? And not the argument? Your presumptuous tone, irrespective of the fallacies therein, is rather cold, and rude. You know nothing about me or my anti-social stab-you-in-back neighbors, sir.

 

Sorry, but in what way does a lack of standard gauge heritage lines in Wales 'shame the UK'? Most people in Wales live a damn sight closer to a significant heritage railway of some sort than do most people in Scotland.