Cumbrian Mountain Express - 14/10/17

1020 Shireman · 16 Oct 2017

Look, it was what it was. Yes, a big risk was taken but WCR got away with it, rather Mick Kelly rescued it for them. Move on. The disaster didn't happen. Still think WCR had the solution 'in house', Galatea to double head with Leander, but they chose not to go there. Whether it was a costly venture due to the delays caused to the 3 Northern Trains only WCR know.

But in any case, that's it for the CMEs for 2017. They were all interesting to say the least. Guardsman was very good, good and ordinary; Leander was way overloaded twice but got us back to Blackburn both times.

My only issue of note is that after cancelling their whole tour program for the year because of the 'bookings they had' - including CMEs - why didn't PRCLT's 46233 turn up for any of them? Having said that, she didn't run like a Class 8 on the Slough-Gloucester and Rtn with 10 on; undoubtedly my most disappointing run of the year. Sad to say because I love big Lizzies. Mind you, I have been travelling behind the 2 true Class 8s, the undoubted class acts of 2017, Tornado and Clan Line.

LMarsh1987 · 16 Oct 2017

So next steam in the North West is the Santa's. Could be good proving ground for the Merchant Navy.

5098 · 16 Oct 2017

LMarsh1987 a spus: ↑

So next steam in the North West is the Santa's.
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Not quite: http://www.vintagetrains.co.uk/cumbrian-express-saturday-21st-october-2017/

sgthompson · 16 Oct 2017

LMarsh1987 a spus: ↑

So next steam in the North West is the Santa's. Could be good proving ground for the Merchant Navy.
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Don't forget the Cumbrian Express this Saturday with 45690 over the S&C Liam . Edit , sorry missed the reply above my comment .

LMarsh1987 · 16 Oct 2017

sgthompson a spus: ↑

Don't forget the Cumbrian Express this Saturday with 45690 over the S&C Liam . Edit , sorry missed the reply above my comment .
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I thought that was it lol ! Will be interesting to see what happens Saturday then ! Double Jubes would be a turn up !

gricerdon · 16 Oct 2017

Oswald T Wistle a spus: ↑

CME 14 October 2017 – 45690 Leander hauling 11+POB

I decided to take the service train from Blackburn to Preston and join the train there; this would ensure an earlier return home should the trip be delayed for any (autumnal) reason. Mrs W was not joining me as it was only a couple of days since we returned from holiday. [Outbound – 1952 miles in 239 mins, av. speed 535 mph, max speed 654 mph on level over Germany (125 mph tail wind much of the way) – almost on a par with Clan Line?!]. It was sunny but the sky to the north was black and threatening.

Les Ross arrived and departed RT and was 1E into Carnforth D&UGL. Les Ross was detached and Leander attached and we were ready, however, yet again the TP Manchester Airport to Edinburgh was running late and we departed 9L. For very recently “passed” driver, John Rogers, this was his first solo trip (I was told). I was in the third coach. Yealand Bank (1/134r) was topped at 27.5 mph, we reached a max of 56 around Beela Viaduct and by Milnthorpe this had fallen to 54 & 11L. Speed fell further to 36 as, with two long blasts on the whistle, we passed through Oxenholme. By Lambrigg we were down to 28 & 15½L, the land was saturated and as we climbed the cloudbase lowered and it began to rain, we topped Grayrigg at 22 & 17½L. (I was later told by a member of the support crew that there was a 20mph TSR on the upper part of the climb).

Speed is essential for a good run up Shap; we reached 62 at MP31.5, this had fallen to 52 across Birkbeck Viaduct and 43.5 under the Greenholme Road bridge. Leander was roaring but this was a (too?) heavy load and the rail conditions were tricky. By Scout Green speed had fallen to 25 and fell further to 17.5 at Shap Wells, then rallied to 18.5 at MP37.25. The summit board was passed, in continuing fine drizzle, at 21.2 mph (24L). As is often the case the weather brightened, the drizzle stopped and we enjoyed a brisk run down the bank at around our limit (75). By Clifton & Lowther we had reduced the deficit to 22L, but running so late it was inevitable that we would be looped at Penrith and this proved to be the case. We slowed for Penrith S Jn (23L) and stopped at Penrith (25L) for a Pendolino to pass. We left Penrith 30L and despite some fast running we remained 30L as we stopped in pl 3 at Carlisle.

It was drizzling as I walked along to a very crowded Woodrow Wilson for lunch (chicken & chips), then up to WH Smith’s for a Killer Sudoku book for Mrs W. It was now dry as I returned to the station.

Mick Kelly got us under way RT. We crossed under the M6 (2 miles out) at 23. I was now 11 coaches back and despite the open window Leander could be heard only occasionally. Progress was measured, a couple of slips could be felt rather than heard (there were several slips throughout the day, all quickly corrected) and the loco was allowed to find its own speed rather than be pressed. We passed Howe & Co SB at 35 & 2L, Low House SB 38 & 3½L, the deficit increased slightly but we were up to 43 through Armathwaite. We passed Lazonby at 42 & 4L, Langwathby 41 & 5L, Culgaith SB 47 & 5L, Kirkby Thore SB 45 and under 4L, Long Marton 50 & 3½L before stopping in Appleby a little over 4L.

We had a scheduled water stop of 13 minutes but this was reduced to under 9 as we left RT. There was the usual “charge” to get some speed before the 1/100r starts. We reached a max of 47.5 across Ormside Viaduct and were RT as we passed the former station at Ormside at 45 – the 1/100r had now begun! We entered Helm Tunnel at 31 but emerged at 23 and were down to 22 across Griseburn Viaduct. The gradient now eases to 1/166r then 1/200r and we passed Crosby Garrett at 32 & 4L. Speed increased to 35 at Smardale Viaduct but now it began to drizzle. The gradient reverts to 1/100r and we were 6½L through Kirkby Stephen at 23. There was no alternative but to let the loco find its own pace, we were 10L as we passed Mallerstang at 30 (1/330r) and peaked at 32.5 just beyond. Now for the final three miles, speed fell away gradually; 24 at Ais Gill Viaduct, 23 under the road bridge and 22.5 beyond before rallying to 25 at the summit (12½L). Then as gravity began to aid us we were quickly away down the hill. Despite some very vigorous running on the lower part of the bank we continued to run 14L.

After Appleby the Train Manager (Les) announced that he had walked through the train and counted 13 people leaning out of, or with heads out of windows that this was dangerous and could impact on the future of steam hauled trips. He said that he intended to walk through again and any repeat offenders would be ejected from the (stopped) train at Long Preston. This had no effect on the “gentleman” opposite, nor did barracking from several adjacent passengers. Les got rather overtaken by events as beyond Settle Junction requests were made for a doctor or a nurse as a lady in the buffet car needed medical attention.

We stopped for water at Hellifield (15L) but were away again 11½L and made a quick run towards Clitheroe. We passed Horrocksford Jn at 33 and only 4½L (there was a service train waiting to cross over – but he would have to wait). We stopped in Clitheroe station (3L on our passing time) to await an ambulance. The ambulance crew attended to the lady and took her from the train, we departed now 27L.

We made our way towards Whalley and as soon as the “green” was sighted we accelerated hard, albeit 27½L. We passed through the station at a shade under 50 and Leander was roaring. A little under 1.5 miles into the 1/81r climb speed dropped below 30 as we approached Mytton Fold Golf club then we were down to 22 through Langho (28L) as we battled the gradient and rail conditions (although it was now dry and sunny there were plenty of trees and fallen leaves). We plodded up the bank and were still doing 17 as we entered Wilpshire Tunnel but much, much slower as we exited but then we stopped just before MP13.75. (I guess that at this point the loco would have been in the platform of the old Wilpshire station, in a cutting surrounded by high trees on both sides and perpetually damp – not the place for a restart on 1/86r). After a few attempts we restarted, passed through Ramsgreave and Wilpshire at 11 & 41L and topped the summit at 17, straight through Daisyfield Jn and stopped in Blackburn 39L. Just time to get to the platform end and see Leander depart in fading light with the glow of the fire colouring the underside of the exhaust – splendid! Fortunately the York to Blackpool North train was running late and eased into Blackburn a couple of minutes later ensuring those passengers returning to Preston a minimal wait. I picked up the car and was home for 7pm. Mrs W’s football team had lost to a 90th minute goal but her Sodoku book was some small consolation.

It may be the same old formula but every trip is different. I had debated whether to book on this, being autumn with the possibility of a diesel on the back but I needed a “steam fix”. Those in the sunny south perhaps don’t appreciate the amount of rain we’ve had in the northwest, particularly on Thursday (and Friday) when WCML services were affected. Low lying land is flooded, rivers are full, high level streams and becks are cascades of rich golden peaty water. Mrs W and I live 700 feet above sea level and leaves have been falling for a month. On the day, it drizzled on the climbs to Grayrigg, Shap and Ais Gill. Reducing the load to say 9 coaches does not seem to be an economic option, with the benefit of hindsight perhaps diesel assistance might have been prudent. However, if a diesel had been added then WCRC would have been slated on here by the “usual gang of thugs”.

Thanks once again to all those who planned and operated the trip and especially to the footplate crews who showed all the professional skills we’ve come to expect. Best wishes to the lady who needed medical attention.

Oswald’s “TW*T OF THE DAY” is equally divided amongst 3 people from the same table.

First the tall white haired gentleman from the table opposite and behind who insisted on standing with his arm, shoulder, head and camera out of the toplight despite Les’s warning and barracking from fellow travellers. One lady from the next table even tried an indirect approach and asked if he would close the window as there was a draught – she was not even acknowledged by anyone at the table. He was at the side where he was in danger from trackside vegetation and infrastructure. He was aged late sixties/early seventies and old enough to know better. He sat down immediately after taking a photo crossing Batty Moss Viaduct – why he needed to stand for the preceding 30 miles . . .

Second, possibly his son, aged in his thirties who spent the whole journey, goggles on and with his head out of the vestibule window. When a lady (in her seventies) sitting at “my” table asked if she might have a look through the window he became abusive. The lady was somewhat feisty and gave as good as she got – but good manners?!

Third, the wife(?) of the white haired man, who whilst we were travelling up Wilpshire Bank put down her copy of the Daily Telegraph and walked to the table of the lady who had the temerity to complain about her husband and asked if she would close her window. This was said with a superior smirk. This “snooty lady” had the sort of supercilious, bloated face that some say might benefit from a good slap.

Footnote: a fellow traveller was told by Les (Train Manager) that NR had deemed the 8F “out of gauge” for Copy Pit. If true that should make the choice of loco(s) for the Tin Bath interesting or perhaps a change of route.
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I hope Les Fishburn took the names of the offenders so that they can be banned from all future RTC trips

Big Al · 16 Oct 2017

LMarsh1987 a spus: ↑

I thought that was it lol ! Will be interesting to see what happens Saturday then ! Double Jubes would be a turn up !
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It's Vintage Trains who have a sensible train length so Leander shouldn't be as stretched with the load.

26D_M · 17 Oct 2017

Big Al a spus: ↑

It's Vintage Trains who have a sensible train length so Leander shouldn't be as stretched with the load.
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Which raises interesting questions about the economics dictating train lengths and thus motive power requirements.

Big Al · 17 Oct 2017

26D_M a spus: ↑

Which raises interesting questions about the economics dictating train lengths and thus motive power requirements.
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Actually it doesn't. VT uses their own stock so they can afford to have a shorter length train to at least break even. (They do, of course, have to fund the maintenance of their stock.) Ditto for West Coast. But the RTC and UKRT have to charter the stock and that adds to their overheads although I believe that West Coast may offer a more reasonable rate for hire of their stock than Riviera.

The CME? The basic problem here (and arguably it is one that is specific to this route) is that a popular steam charter circuit - Shap and the S&C - involves a bit of main line where paths are few and far between and the need for good timekeeping is critically important. It happens also to involve sections of line that are particularly challenging for steam and dependent on the weather and time of year. If operators cannot be relied on to always go for the safest option with loading of their trains when this route is involved then you could see NR laying down specific restrictions based on engineering knowledge and past performances.

Wait a minute. Isn't that what they have done?

gricerdon · 17 Oct 2017

Big Al a spus: ↑

Actually it doesn't. VT uses their own stock so they can afford to have a shorter length train to at least break even. (They do, of course, have to fund the maintenance of their stock.) Ditto for West Coast. But the RTC and UKRT have to charter the stock and that adds to their overheads although I believe that West Coast may offer a more reasonable rate for hire of their stock than Riviera.

The CME? The basic problem here (and arguably it is one that is specific to this route) is that a popular steam charter circuit - Shap and the S&C - involves a bit of main line where paths are few and far between and the need for good timekeeping is critically important. It happens also to involve sections of line that are particularly challenging for steam and dependent on the weather and time of year. If operators cannot be relied on to always go for the safest option with loading of their trains when this route is involved then you could see NR laying down specific restrictions based on engineering knowledge and past performances.

Wait a minute. Isn't that what they have done?
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Yes but it's being ignored. RTC should have limited the train to max length 10 or even 9 including support coach and not gone for maximum sales. What they did is irresponsible and might jeopardize future steam operation over Shap

henrywinskill · 17 Oct 2017

gricerdon a spus: ↑

Yes but it's being ignored. RTC should have limited the train to max length 10 or even 9 including support coach and not gone for maximum sales. What they did is irresponsible and might jeopardize future steam operation over Shap
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Yes at last a couple of sentences sum up the situation perfectly.Well said Sir!

26D_M · 17 Oct 2017

Big Al a spus: ↑

Actually it doesn't. VT uses their own stock so they can afford to have a shorter length train to at least break even. (They do, of course, have to fund the maintenance of their stock.) Ditto for West Coast. But the RTC and UKRT have to charter the stock and that adds to their overheads although I believe that West Coast may offer a more reasonable rate for hire of their stock than Riviera.

The CME? The basic problem here (and arguably it is one that is specific to this route) is that a popular steam charter circuit - Shap and the S&C - involves a bit of main line where paths are few and far between and the need for good timekeeping is critically important. It happens also to involve sections of line that are particularly challenging for steam and dependent on the weather and time of year. If operators cannot be relied on to always go for the safest option with loading of their trains when this route is involved then you could see NR laying down specific restrictions based on engineering knowledge and past performances.

Wait a minute. Isn't that what they have done?
Click to expand...

Actually it does.
If RTC is reliant on hiring stock and is told of any restrictions that determines the overhead. Its farcical if they are forced to add coaches to sell more seats to make it viable but then exceeds sensible limits.
Surely as the same business is supplying stock and TOC this is a manageable process. Then there is the "special relationship" between RTC and WC to take into account.

60017 · 17 Oct 2017

Maybe it would just be better to run up to Carlisle with an electric locomotive. Steam one way to Hellifield, diesel back to Carnforth/Preston and electric back down the WCML. That way delays would be minimised, steam not as stretched and all the analysts and finger pointers would be happy with nothing to whinge about.

Spamcan81 · 17 Oct 2017

60017 a spus: ↑

Maybe it would just be better to run up to Carlisle with an electric locomotive. Steam one way to Hellifield, diesel back to Carnforth/Preston and electric back down the WCML. That way delays would me minimised, steam not as stretched and all the analysts and finger pointers would be happy with nothing to whinge about.
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Not so sure about that John. I think some of them are only happy when they've got something to whinge about.

sycamore · 17 Oct 2017

Spamcan81 a spus: ↑

Not so sure about that John. I think some of them are only happy when they've got something to whinge about.
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imagine if there had been a diesel on the back...

Copper-capped · 17 Oct 2017

sycamore a spus: ↑

imagine if there had been a diesel on the back...
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Lose-lose.

26D_M · 17 Oct 2017

60017 a spus: ↑

Maybe it would just be better to run up to Carlisle with an electric locomotive. Steam one way to Hellifield, diesel back to Carnforth/Preston and electric back down the WCML. That way delays would me minimised, steam not as stretched and all the analysts and finger pointers would be happy with nothing to whinge about.
Click to expand...

Spamcan81 a spus: ↑

Not so sure about that John. I think some of them are only happy when they've got something to whinge about.
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But then, equally, you would have nobody to comment on and as you only tend to remark on individuals, rather than the substance of a debate, your days would be as empty as your contributions.

GWR4707 · 17 Oct 2017

60017 a spus: ↑

Maybe it would just be better to run up to Carlisle with an electric locomotive. Steam one way to Hellifield, diesel back to Carnforth/Preston and electric back down the WCML. That way delays would me minimised, steam not as stretched and all the analysts and finger pointers would be happy with nothing to whinge about.
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Electric to Carlisle, one steam to Hellifield and another back to Carnforth like the good old days. - passengers and those in armchairs seemed so much happier then

GWR4707 · 17 Oct 2017

26D_M a spus: ↑

But then, equally, you would have nobody to comment on and as you only tend to remark on individuals, rather than the substance of a debate, your days would be as empty as your contributions.
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Sorry can you point me to the bit in @Spamcan81 comments where has remarked upon individuals as I am obviously missing something?

60017 · 17 Oct 2017

26D_M a spus: ↑

But then, equally, you would have nobody to comment on and as you only tend to remark on individuals, rather than the substance of a debate, your days would be as empty as your contributions.
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OK

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