Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

I agree that an apology to the Atlantic guys is due but you just know it ain't gonna happen. Not when the perpetrator of the insult is quite convinced that he's right and everyone else is wrong. When Beachy Head is up and running, I think we should all club together and buy Paul enough tickets that he can ride behind her for the next 20 years.

 

Indeed. I'm looking forward to paying a visit to the Bluebell when it's in steam (not that that will stop me going before, but it's a case of being in the right place at the right time). 'KBO' as Churchill would write.

 

NO !! He will spend the entire trip educating the public on why the engine up front and the coaches they are travelling in are wrong, and if its a corridoor stock, he will be able to go through the entire train, Stopping off at the buffet car to get something to quench his dry throat before continuing until the train enters Shapthorne tunnel, when as it exits, he is found gagged and tied up in the guards van ,

 

It seems a shame that this thread has degenerated into an unpleasant exchange of personal insults. Perhaps one for the Moderators.
Ray.

 

Firstly, the 8Fs were by no means the first belpaire boilered locos built by the LNER. Its constituents built many locomotives with belpaire boilers and its works at Gorton, Doncaster and Darlington all built belpaire boilers for different classes at different times.

Thompson was in fact very impressed by the O6s (LNER classification for the 8Fs). So much so that the front pony truck design off the Stanier loco was quietly applied to the L1, the K1/1 and the V2s almost verbatim. Thompson was very much an admirer of Stanier's work, in particular his Pacific designs.

What he disagreed with Stanier on was the use of the belpaire boiler, and insomuch that the LNER had very rarely used belpaires (and the most numerous were class O4, which would have round topped boilers fitted by Gresley and Thompson) he had a point about initial cost versus service life and maintenance. The round topped boilers the LNER favoured were easier to build, that much is certain, so on the whole were likely cheaper than an equivalent belpaire boiler.

The LNER had of course built many replacement belpaire boilers for the majority of the GCR classes it retained (mostly the 2-8-0s and 4-6-0s) and of course the GER classes it also inherited (most of James Holdens locos in original forms had belpaires - Stephen Holden's B12s were a mixture until the end of steam).

The Thompson B1 compared very favourably with the Hall and the Black Five during the exchange trials, but had a much lower overall build cost. You pays your money, you makes your choice - I'm biased, the B1 is one of my favourite locomotives - but it would make an interesting debate and comparison today.

 

Can't wait to get some more Atlantic haulage. Managed it once c.1976 when GNR 990 was on the KWVR but it had the USA tank coupled inside for help in the wet so it wasn't pure Atlantic power.
Roll on Beachy Head I say.

 

Martin - enough I think. Can we get back to discussion of Beachy Head?

Tom

 

Firstly, my apologies for taking the thread off topic (again) with the boiler debate. I am building up to a point about the Atlantics, however...!

If we had figures for the O4/1s and O4/8s in terms of maintenance costs, it would be a pretty direct comparison. They continued to rebuild O4s into Thompson O4/8 and O1s well into BR days so there was some perceived merit in continuing to build the standard B1 type boiler and fit them to these classes.

Yes, I think you are correct when you say Thompson made that observation.

It is interesting that Riddles WD machines had round topped boilers as per LNER practice and then all of his BR Standard machines were either straight up copies of LMS practice or had belpaire boilers of LMS style.

RE most powerful Atlantics - in this country wasn't it the NBR Atlantics potentially on basis of tractive effort? I could be completely misremembering.

 

The ex LBSC H2's had 21"cyls & 200psi boiler pressure giving a T.E of 24,520lbs.
The ex GNR C1's only had 170psi boiler pressure so the ones with 19" cyls had a T.E. of 15,650lbs whilst the ones with 20" cyls had a T.E. of 17,340lbs.
As the new Beachy Head's boiler is ex LNER I would be surprised if it was not limited to 170psi.
Ray.

 

GWR 40, the prototype Star, had TE a shade over 25,000 when running as a 4-4-2 I think.

 

The superheated Reid Atlantics were pressed to 180 psi and had a tractive effort of 23,345 lbs @85%, so slightly less than the H2. Very imposing looking locos though.

 

By all accounts, if the question was which Atlantics burned the most coal while subjecting the crew to the most violent riding characteristics, they'd be easy winners.

 

Partly. When built, the H1 Atlantics (unsuperheated) had 200psi boilers, but the H2 (superheated) had the boiler pressure reduced back to 170psi, possibly a consequence of managing steam temperature within the constraints of available lubrication, or possibly an attempt to reduce boiler maintenance costs.

Subsequently the H1 Atlantics were fitted with superheaters in the mid 1920s (under Maunsell), with the result that at that point the H1s had superheated 200psi boilers with slide valves; and the H2s had superheated 170psi boilers with piston valves. Finally between 1936 and 1940, the H2 Atlantics had their pressure raised to 200psi, which allowed the boilers to be bought into a single pool for maintenance purposes. At that time, there were thirteen boilers between twelve engines.

As far as I can see there was no significant structural change to the original H2 boilers when the pressure was raised, but I assume they had been designed in parallel with the H1 boilers for 200psi and were originally simply down rated when originally fitted to the H2s, so no structural problem raising the working pressure again.

I'm not sure of the working pressure of the LNER boiler we have - did the GNR Atlantics subsequently receive higher boiler pressure during their working lives? The boiler we have is of later LNER construction, not GNR.

Tom

 

So a small number of the LNER Atlantics operated at different working pressures.

The four cylinder no.292 worked at 200, but the boiler was built for 225psi.

No. 1300 worked at 200psi but suffered some steaming problems regularly.

The big changes to the GNR Atlantics over their working lives was superheater type. Almost all worked at either 170 or 175 psi.

If it’s a later boiler, it’s likely designed for 200 psi but was used at 175 psi. You can tell whether it’s an early or late boiler by the superheater arrangement, in theory.

 

Come on PH, lighten up a bit and find a sense of humour so you can laugh at yourself occasionally.

By all means put your head above the parapet and fuel the debate* but you need to be man enough to take a few hits from return fire with good grace. Don't be the annoying brat that runs up and kicks someone's ankles, then runs away crying when said person clips them round the ear. Surely you're bigger than that?

* As I've said before, there are a number of things that I completely agree with you on.

 

That is exactly what I was doing actually. Martin is one of the people on here who can be disagreed with in a civilised fashion.

PH

 

Where is this Furness 4-4-0 twin? You intrigue me.

 

No. 107

Details above - I think I was told once it actually has larger drivers than the Furness locos, but otherwise identical in many respects.

 

Ah, that one. I think you mean similar... I've got identical twins, so if you say twins, I have a certain expectation...
I think the Furness Sharpies were very similar to those for e.g. the Cambrian and other smaller lines. As they all had similar requirements, why not sell them the same engines?

 

Utrecht?