Bagnall 4-4-0 Sir George Newnes (WB2891 formerly Charles Wytock)

Here is a photo of one out of the engine to show what the firebox looks like ( I should had taken other photos of it at the time as well). What I understand it is a black art to fire one of them, and once mastered they are good steamers and CW was a very good engine when fired correctly for the L&B.

 

As far as standard gauge locos with marine type fireboxes go the L&Y experimented with them on a batch of 0-8-0's - corrugated to increase the heating surface. Doesn't the preserved ex LNWR 0-4-0 ST have a marine box? On of the problems with this type of boiler is the short 'working space' on the gauge glass which is at a very acute angle on the backhead. On a steeply graded line such as the W&LLR keeping water over the firebox crown when going downgrade was a problem with Monarch IIRC. The grate is usually about 1/3 of the way above the bottom of the firebox 'drum' and this dictates running with a very thin fire which tends to be drawn forward by the blast and can block the bottom row of tubes.
Ray.
p.s. I seem to remember, that when Monarch arrived from Sittingbourne, it had a plate roughly half way up the gaugeframe that warned something to the effect of "don't let the water fall below this level!"

 

Thanks everyone for these most informative posts and photos. One of the joys of this forum!!

 

Around the turn of the century 1900 marine fire boxes were tested on quite a few standard gauge designs as well. They were called Lentz boilers.
Here is the first of three 2-4-2 tanks delivered 1893 by Atlas in Sweden (ancestor of today's mining equipment manufacturer Atlas Copco) to Stockholm Saltsjöbadens Järnväg, a suburban railway in Stockholm.
The line was rebuilt as an American style electric interurban in 1912 and the locos sold for industrial use, one or two survived into the 50-ties.

As you may see from the drawing, the boilers had combustion chamber and a sloping rear part of the fire box. These features avoided the two main drawbacks of this type of fire box: the small combustion volume and the restricted air supply.

 

Been on "Isibutu" several times at Statfold Barn and should a lottery win ever take place I would love one of these 4-4-0 Bagnall's. "Isibutu" in particular is amazingly free steaming and will do the heaviest of things asked of it on steep gradients. The running gag that a marine or bullhead boiler doesn't steam certainly isn't true with her

 

Fascinating locos, though my first reaction is that the construction of such a boiler surely negates the overriding advantage of the marine layout (i.e. simplicity of construction). The building to the right of the loco tends to suggest the image is a fairly late one, which to my mind is quite surprising. Is it possible to confirm the late survivors did so whilst keeping their original boilers?

IIRC, Three of these Bagnalls were reimported from S.Africa, the third I think is still on the WHHR at Porthmadog. AIUI, the charge isn't that the layout doesn't produce steam but rather that they're intrinsically unsuited to sustained long runs. "Polar Bear" managed over 60 years on it's original boiler, which wouldn't have happened (even on short lines like Groudle and Amberley) if the concept was badly flawed. For that matter, such locos would scarcely have been produced by Bagnalls over about six decades either!

The three 4-4-0t's, being pretty late examples, you'd have expected to be among the best of their breed, as it seems they have been. While we're about it, the boiler on the 4-4-0 design is way better proportioned than that the much longer and thinner boiler on "Monarch", which was another major factor in it's unsuitability for the switchback gradients of the W&L. It was designed to shift heavy freight on the shorter and noticeably less hilly Bowaters line at Sittingbourne after all.

I'm not too sure you'd want to use one of the 4-4-0's regularly between Porthmadog and Caernarfon though .... I'd imagine keeping the fire clean during a heavy couple of hours of continuous hard steaming would prove an "interesting" experience. Horses for courses. After all, "Flying Scotsman" wouldn't make an ideal colliery loco either!

 

Some bed time reading on the same type as ''Monarch'' is https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/16/Bagnall_articulated_locos.htm

 

I think you're right, this boiler design was not as cost efficient in the long run as expected. There is a good reason why the vast majority of locomotives had Stephenson boilers.
The picture is the builders official photo of 1893, see the provisional track and the spit n' polish look.
But I have seen seen photos of the locos late in their careers and the characteristic "camel back" boiler looks the same, thus I am rather sure they had the same boilers. Probably fitting of conventional boilers would have been too difficult to be worth the effort.

Completely off track, I can't resist mentioning that the super modern interurban version of the railway from 1912 ran completely unchanged for almost 65 years until 1976! A most remarkable living museum at the time. Then it was converted with modified underground rolling stock. Today a preservation society have a few coaches and run occasional specials on the line. See:
http://www.ssnj.se/
Some information in English at the bottom of the left menu pulldown Bilder. And more pictures all over the whole website.

Just to reconnect to 600 mm gauge. The only way to operate a railway in this antiquated style was to have its own fully equipped and skilled workshop. At the end they had to make all their spare parts themselves. In 1967, when we had just moved to Mariefred from Södertälje, we had one of our old coaches overhauled at the SSnJ workshop. This coach was built in 1902 and had been a shed and later hen house for decades. They did a superb job and it is still running and has received only minor maintenance in the last half century.
http://www.lokman.se/tagbilder/Svenska_tag/Svenska_museitag/Mfd_920801_1.jpg

 

One of them is also on my lottery "wishlist"!
The locos certainly seemed to be popular with the sugar estates in Natal where there were several repeat orders and the design was refined from an initial smaller inside framed 4-4-0 to the later larger outside framed locos. They certainly worked some significant tonnages over reasonable distances and gradients out there as well.
Natal also seemed to get on slightly better with Monarch's smaller 2ft gauge cousins, one of which sits in collection X and the other in Colorado.
Can't help but think that the latter example would make a really nice repatriation project for the Statfold Team.......!!

Chris

 

@NGChrisW [post#29] Subtle last paragraph Chris

 

The main line at Tongaat Sugar in Natal was about 75 miles long, so the 13 Bagnall 4-4-0Ts they had were clearly able to cope with a long run. The first was bought in 1907 and the last pair in 1945, so Tongaat were obviously happy that the designed worked well for them.
Picking up on a couple of other points, both Isibutu and Charles Wytock have steamed very well on their UK duties. The problem at South Tynedale for Isibutu was a particularly tight point in their yard I believe. However Charles Wytock has managed to traverse perfectly well all of the points on the Lynton & Barnstaple including those at the bottom end of Killington Lane (which Lyn currently can't manage, despite modifications!). The coupled wheelbase of the Bagnalls is a mere 3 ft 6 inches.

 

I gather the Swedish 2' line which bought Maffei 'Sid' are going to take a look at CW as a possible new loco for them (Risten-Lakvik Railway www.rlj.se).
The Hayling Island line has now resident steam loco, so perhaps this is a deal for them?

 

A bit big for them, surely?

Incidentally, the Heywood locos on the Ravenglass & Eskdale are another example of marine-firebox locos struggling when used over longer distances, hence why Muriel was rebuilt as River Irt.

 

I did enquire about purchasing Sinembe when it was offered around 18 months ago, all I can say is the price asked for was about 100% over what I wanted to or was willing to pay. Assuming that CW was sold for a similar price in the first place I think it will be back on the market for a largish figure.

The reports I have heard of the original boilers was that you could dent them with a small hammer, the use of boiler patches and building up with weld was seen as a route to repair... I can not see any of them lasting very long in service before major boiler work will be required!

 

The steam loco Wendy at Hayling island is on loan from Hampshire Narrow Gauge Railway trust. Hopefully it will not stay there for ever as I know somewhere else that would like to borrow it! incidentally Wendy has a marine firebox, or Bagnell Drumhead. So do Sweetpea locos (well the five inch gauge ones).

I was told that Charles Wytock needed a new boiler by someone at the L&B.

 

Or even on post 5 of this very thread - obviously we should hope those that buy this locomotive will be made aware of the recent boiler reports.

 

It was probably the same person who told us both so maybe we shouldn't speculate? I have driven a loco with a marine firebox. Can't remember firing it any different to one with a locomotive firebox, but it wasn't doing much. I know the logic behind the marine firebox in the sweet pea loco is the ease of build and the reduced need to drill lots of holes for stays as the only need longitudinal stays as there are no flat surfaces, just concentric tubes.

 

Back to the LB railway for a minute.
What’s the story with the ex-Gartell railway Steam loco they’ve got there. Was for sale too?

 

Do you mean 'Faith' - the very small one? If so, it's for sale (or was recently).

 

Yes that one