Sandringham New Build(s)

If you want everyone to agree with everything you say then the answer is simple. Don't post on N.P!

PH

 

With your various renovated Victorian carriages, the Bluebell has an obvious prototype in the form of an L.C.D.R. "Europa" a type which, unlike certain others mentioned in this thread, had the finest of reputations.

Paul H

 

If I wore one like this I'd need to reserve an entire compartment.

 

Very good looking Tim. In fact I was going to say that in my opinion the B17 was one of the best looking locos ever. I've read Mr Hardy's words on 61647 and 61613 at particular times and yes you could obviously be stuck with a loco which wouldn't steam or was excessively rough for thousands of miles before next service and very restricted as to what it could be used for.

61668 Bradford City was one of the two last of class (with 61660) and ended its days on the Southend electrification engineers trains.
.

 

Totally agree that the B17s were good looking locos. No idea if they were actually any good, but hopefully one of these schemes will suceed in building one.

 

I'm sorry if my post came across that way, it certainly wasn't my intention to make anyone feel stupid. All I want to do is encourage people to step back and see a bigger picture that perhaps they hadn't thought of.

Nor is it my mission in life to pour cold water on things...as I say, if a group are actually willing to put in the hard work to raise the cash and get their dream engine built, then good luck to them. As I've said before on this forum, I personally wouldn't have said that preservation really "needed" a new Patriot, but I still took a great interest in seeing the part-built 45551 at Warley a few years ago. People will put their money and labour into the things they want, not the things that, as Sir Humphrey might say, they "ought to have". There's nothing wrong with that, but I do think it is important that we are realise this and are honest about it, rather then kidding ourselves that certain projects have a greater historical significance than is actually the case. Unfortunately though, that inevitably means that one has to be a little bit critical of some of the marketing that various groups have put out, and unfortunately there isn't really a "nice" way of doing that.

Of course, others may disagree with me, but that's what a forum is for, right?

 

The B17s were certainly handsome engines. I have also read R. H. N. Hardy's words, and others, on them. It may be they could not handle main line work, but, if the owning group have the means and commitment to build one, I am sure it will find ample, easy employment on preserved lines.

 

'Improvements in performance, reliability and maintenance are planned by the careful introduction of design changes to the original technical baseline'
If successful in this endeavour then im sure it would be as capable as a Black 5/ B1.

 

A B17 is a nice loco and I wish the group(s) well in their aim. I do see the point though on minor gaps in 20th century locos while there are much bigger ones in earlier peiods. The LNWR George is a good choice, which seems to be making some progress, as was the GER Claud, but that doesn't seem to be getting off the ground. I like the suggestion on the Bluebell too about the Victorian train recreation

 

I don't think the Claud has ever made progress. The group has produced some 3D images on Facebook and not much else (unless you count a strip of steel for a buffer beam).

I know groups all have to live within their means and start small and grow, but the Claud group has been on the go for 6 years now and doesn't seem to be getting anywhere (they don't appear to be registered with companies house which would seem to indicate a low level of funds).


Keith

 

None of the new build projects or other major developments such as line extensions happen by magic. Where they succeed it is because there is a team of individuals with the appropriate skills between them, including project management and fundraising. Those whose projects are making very slow progress or none should take a good look at the successful teams and either work out how to emulate them or give up.

 

Out of interest, why would a B17 not give a good account of itself on the main line?

Dave

 

My reading of Hardy /Balmore was that he thought they were such a mixed bag. He describes 61669 as running beautifully for tens of thousands of miles while others just would not run. One of the worst which if I remember followed him from Woodford Halse to Ipswich via Lincoln was 61647 which he then consigned to some slow trip working to Lowestoft for the next 20k. Then when he was at Stratford, 61613 was saved for summer Saturday workings by country enginemen who wouldn't know what they were getting till it was too late. So, for whatever reason, mech eng people can comment, they were not robust, unlike the B1s.

 

They were not Sir Nigel's most successful design, on top of everything else they had a lot of trouble with the frames being a compromise to keep weight down so they could be used on the GE Mainline. By all accounts they were also very rough riding.There was a good couple af articles in Trains Illustrated by Dick Hardy back in 1960 about the B17s

 

The class could perform very well. Given the work that was expected of them, GC mainline, North Country Continental etc. they had to. They had a good boiler and adequately sized bearings and would stand a wide regulator opening from the start. Cliffe and Clay is a fair starting point.
The main problem was discovered by English. The weights required on the axles was at odds with the natural centre of mass of the engine, there was a couple, you could set the axle loading correctly but the engine would soon readjust them.
The class had a 18 ton / 18 ton 3 cwt axle loading - in theory. Some redesign might prove necessary in order to bring about an improvement in the ride and eliminate the identified problem.
The B17 was very much a stop gap and was not produced " in house". The V4 had a 17 ton axle load and was very much the product of the LNE proper.

 

Interesting thanks. What is the name of that book please? I'll try and source a copy.

If some examples ran well, and others didn't, it suggests that some were not being put together or maintained properly. I know that due to the parallel boiler they were forced to compromise and adopt divided drive, and also that they were built down to a weight target. But a new build group should be able to identify and overcome any weaknesses, cf the P2 project.

I've always liked the B17s, though I never (knowingly) saw one.

Dave

 

As John B says there were articles in Trains Illustrated about 1960 by Balmore which was Hardy's pen name when he was a serving railwayman.

Then there is Steam in the Blood and A Life on the Lines by Hardy, two of the best books of their kind I know. A tenner well spent at Amazon for the pair of them.

 

Recently, the group at Llangollen got the rear dragbox fitted to "Spirit of Sandringham"

 

They certainly displaced the Lord Faringdons on the old Great Central. But they were quickly displaced themselves...ahem... by the Lord Faringdons!