Battle of Cambrai - what Locos

Trains taking tanks to the battle of Cambrai. The leading engines on two of the trains at least are obviously Dean Goods. What are the second ones?

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205215583?cat=photographs

http://www.iwm.org.uk/corporate/privacy-copyright © IWM (Q 46936)

 

North British J 36 0-6-0s.

 

Would suggest both locos are Dean Goods; note the second loco has brass at chimney top which was a GWR practice but not that of the impoverished / canny NBR.

 

I beg to differ, square cab spectacles so not J36. I suspect they are SNCB Class 44s, another good Scottish design!

Foxy

 

This seems to be getting muddled. The train on the left is indeed hauled by what became a J36, while that in the middle is double headed by a Dean Goods and an SNCB class 44 as illustrated so well by @Foxhunter. I am wondering what the loco is that is piloting the J36 - is it another Dean Goods?

Peter James

 

I would agree with the original poster that its a Dean Goods, round spectacles, belpaire firebox and polished safety value cover.

 

Its certainly a Dean Goods piloting the train on the left. Safety valve cover, belpaire boiler, GWR style tender.
I still seem to see a polygonal cab spectacle window on the l/h train engine though. It also appears to have that distinctive line of fittings on the firebox above the handrail.

 

Sorry to disagree Peter, but that IS another Class 44 on the LHS, piloted by another Dean Goods:



Definitely square spectacle windows and firebox stay heads (?) clearly visible.

Foxy

 

So there seems to be a pattern of Dean Goods piloting a Class 44 - which suggests its deliberate - so why? Is it to do with braking systems on the French or Belgian rolling stock and the Dean Goods not being compatible?

 

I guess that you can see more detail than I can in that picture. To me, at first glance, it looks like what was then called a NBR "C" Class where as the middle train has an unmistakable Class 44. I note another Class 44 on the extreme right. Either way it is a very interesting photograph - thanks to @Jimc for posting it.

Peter

 

On the IWM page, the caption says it was taken at "Plateau station" - where was that?

(Google brings up another photo: http://tank100.com/training-combat/war-diaries-13-16-november-1917/ - but doesn't obviously suggest the location. I'm assuming "Plateau" was a British name for a station, rather than a local one?)

Tom

 

Doing some reading I think most likely Plateau was a large yard where the standard gauge rails ended and battlefield transport took over. Judging by the name it was a high and dry spot. Most likley it survived no longer than the time the war was in its vicinity.

Presumably they're the same trains, but in that tank100 photo those are clearly Class 44 with what look extraordinarily like GWR tenders in front of them.

 

'Plateau'was not a station as such, just an unloading/loading point, from the ROD report 1914-1919, "The preliminary moves took 436 MkI1 tanks, their personnel and stores to four advanced locations, south and west of Arras. Starting on 11 November all but 40 tanks were concentrated at Plateau, the support railhead on the high ground east of Albert, where additional sidings and six loading ramps had been constructed. Here, ammunition and stores were embarked."

I hope this helps.

Foxy

 

I found this map...
https://ncc1717.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/plateau-both-2.jpg

on this page.
https://ncc1717.wordpress.com/train-layout/

I think this is the approx location, but there's nothing there now. If you put satellite view on and zoom in and out I think its possible to spot crop marks where the tracks were in a few places.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/49°58'33.8"N+2°45'29.7"E

trouble is its so easy to see what you want to see...

The aerial photos on Bing Maps are a different season and I think the line is a bit clearer.

 

Thanks for the very interesting posts. I cycled around the area a few years ago but had no idea that there was such an extensive railway system there. I have had all the necessary knowledge about the use of railways in WW1 for years but never integrated it in my mind sufficiently to imagine the scene at the time.

 

Jim, you are spot on! You can still see the loops in 'Happy Valley' on Google Earth.... I spent a week last summer riding round the area taking part in commemorations to mark 'The Charge at High Wood', the only successful cavalry action during the 1916 Somme offensive. The 7th Dragoon Guards and 20th Deccan Horse formed up in the valley at Carnoy, just under the ridge where 'Plateau' station was located and you are right, there is nothing left of it.

This image of the 20th Deccan Horse was taken from the north side of Plateau, overlooking the valley with the metre gauge railway between the cavalry and the artillery limbers in the background.

Foxy

 

Although on their native metals the Deans would of course be the train engine and being piloted by the Class 44!

I imagine the ROD/SNCF were excused that bit of Swindon genius....

 

Just ROD I think. What's the story behind the ROD having all those Belgian locos? Did their crews evacuate in front of the advancing Germans?

 

Many folk will tend to do just that when they have a live firearm pointed at them.