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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. J Rob't Harrison

    J Rob't Harrison Member

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    The AGM of the 567 Group took place last weekend (11 November). At the moment (usual caveats re: funding, manpower, supply chain and the like) we're looking at finishing around the 2022- 2024 mark.
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Enquiry: Is the work done by the G5 group on their crank axle likely to be beneficial to the 567 project?
     
  3. Courier

    Courier New Member

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    Perhaps for "JG Robinson" read "Sir Sam Fay" and for "OW&W" read M&SWJ"

    https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Sam_Fay

    Robinson's father and brother worked for the GWR:
    https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Matthew_Robinson
    http://www.steamindex.com/people/swindon.htm

    Robinson, James Armstrong
    Born in Carlisle in 1854; died 1933. Began railway career as apprentice under his father at Chester. Eventually he rose to become works manager and divisional superintendent at Wolverhampton, but before that had held similar position at Newton Abbot works. Latterly was Churchward's outdoor superintendent at Swindon. Retired in 1920 and joined firm of J. & P. Hill of Sheffield (Locomotive Mag., 1920, 26, 211). David Jackson's J.G. Robinson. Group photograph with Churchward: Backtrack, 2013, 27, 272.A model for instruction purposes. Locomotive Mag., 1910, 16, 148-9.

    Robinson, Matthew
    Father of John George Robinson and James Armstrong Robinson. Born in Walbottle, Northumberland in 1830. Joined Newcastle & Carlisle Railway and whilst working at Carlisle married Jane Armstrong, a farmer's daughter from Walby in 1854. In June 1857 he joined George Armstrong on the Shrewsbury & Chester Railway at Shrewsbury. He then moved to Wolverhampton with Armstrong. In 1869 he moved to Chester to take charge of the GWR shed and shops. In 1876 he was promoted to be locomotive, carriage & wagon superintendent of the Bristol Division from which he retired in February 1897. David Jackson's J.G. Robinson described him as a true morth country gentleman standing well over six feet in height, weighing almost 20 stones and complete with huge bushy beard. He died in 1904 (portrait in Jackson)..
     
  4. J Rob't Harrison

    J Rob't Harrison Member

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    I don't know, sorry to say! Mention of the crank axle was made at the AGM, but only briefly. A few years ago some work was done on designing the crank axle and then virtually testing it, and the design passed. (This was covered in the Summer 2016 issue of Mainline.) There was some discussion at the AGM of revisiting the crank axle before proceeding to having it made, which probably won't be for a while yet.
     
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  5. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    As I've said before, if you want another GCR loco (and it's an under-represented company) then go for something useful on a preserved line, like the 4-4-2T or 4-6-2T. Both were useful and attractive classes and would be ideal for heritage line use. And you can run them backwards without looking silly...
     
  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Is no-one going to put in a word for a Cambrian design? :(
     
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  7. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    I did, long ago, say the Cambrian deserved a new build (on representation grounds). But what? I wondered about a 2-4-0T. They had a rather motley collection of tank locos. The 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s were handsome but not the most useful type for the Llangollen, Gwili, P&B or Oswestry lines...
     
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  8. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    I like the idea of the GC 4-6-2 tank, would be a useful heritage line loco. Good engines too, by all accounts, I heard that Neasden preferred them to the Thompson L1s which they were later sent
     
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  9. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    apologies . that was indeed Sir Sam Fay
     
  10. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    A Jersey Lilly and a Pom Pom would get my vote .
     
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  11. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you on the Pom Pom (when travelling in reverse are they a Mop Mop?) but I suspect an Immingham would be a better choice than a C4.
     
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  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A pacific tank would be a sight to behold. Though it's a shame neither survived, the LBSC J1/J2 class were essentially express locos, with drivers (let's be honest) not best suited to 25mph operation. The NER had some which, with their smaller drivers, would likely prove more useful to heritage lines. You've two flavours to choose from. Worsdell's or Raven's. It'll be interesting to see what happens to all that potential being built up by the folks behind the G5 as that loco nears completion. There'll be a lot of NER fans with an accumulation of knowledge, drive and above all, a track record behind them.
     
  13. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    D7 looks good. As for Thompson's rebuilt B3/3 it really shows his engineering prowess that the frame cracked soon after replacing a well balanced 4 cylinder with 2 massive outside cylinders after a perfect life until then. Getting hammered doesnt even begin to describe it!
     
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  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Thompson was heavily restricted by LNER board in any kind of loco building. B3/3 was treated as a prototype towards the B2 rebuildings and also provided a useful comparison to the 6ft 2in B1s.

    Only allowed as a rebuilding - it was not possible to get spare parts for Lentz and Caprotti valve gear during WW2 (hence also the building of the D class 4-4-0 from a lentz fitted class D49) which is why it was chosen for more extensive rebuilding.

    Thompson was not allowed to build all new designs - hence why even the “new” B1 was effectively a merging of Gresleys most successful standard components into a very good 4-6-0 design.

    The frames used for the B3/3 were retained and as you say suffered more stress as a two cylinder. However all B3s suffered frame cracking to various degrees, and the B3/3 was not withdrawn solely on the basis of frame cracking.

    It was withdrawn (as were many other LNER 4-6-0s) as a non standard 4-6-0 replaced in effect by the rapidly numerous Thompson B1s which eventually numbered over 400 examples.

    It was Thompson’s plan for the LNER to withdraw the oldest and smallest classes in favour of a few standard classes and the B3/3 - like many other GCR, NER and GNR designs was a victim of this reasonable plan.

    The Robinson B3s did not in any way have a perfect life (would be interested to see what evidence you have that shows this? B3s reputation as poor steamers and heavy on coal quite clear in Yeadons, RCTS and the various Gresley books where they are mentioned) and it says much about the original design that both LNER CMEs who looked at them rebuilt them heavily in a number of areas (valve gear first then boiler, cylinders and valve gear).

    Not as straightforward as Thompson’s design being potentially bad!

    Harrison - one of the other LNER designers (and famous for his work on Duke of Gloucester) - liked the B3/3 - described it as a “beauty” - and expressed regret at its passing. This appears from my own research the only one of Thompson’s designs he appears to have liked openly, for better or worse!

    The lone B3/3 had a fairly intense wartime life and was used quite extensively until broken up for spares for class B1 in 1949.

    It was the lone survivor, outlasting the other B3s which had already been scrapped by then. Its boiler went into the B1 pool of spares retaining its unique dome.
     
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  15. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    That's a fair enough opinion, and if I were starting from scratch and all other things were equal I might well make a similar choice, but there are a few of reasons as to why a D7, as opposed to a tank loco, was chosen.

    Firstly, part of the vision for building a new (or in this case, strictly speaking a replica) GCR express loco was to produce a Victorian locomotive to haul Victorian carriages to recreate a Victorian express train, i.e. to represent the MSLR, not the GCR as it became around the turn of the century. Both the 4-4-2T and 4-6-2T designs you gave as examples came about in the 20th century.

    Secondly, the class 2 was chosen because of the availability of donor parts. An 18" x 26" cylinder block, of the type used in the RSH Uglies, among others, which is of the same pattern that would have been used in the Class 2s was sourced, and a GCR 3,080 gallon tender (although in serious need of rebuilding) was obtained from the MRB. There was also consideration of purchasing a Belpaire Boiler which would have been almost identical to the pattern the Class 2s were rebuilt with, but after an analysis of the cost of purchasing and overhauling the boiler and seeing that it was not much different to the cost of building a brand new round-top, the latter option was selected.

    Thirdly, there is no reason why the Class 2 could not be classified as 'ideal for heritage line use'. Yes, larger driving wheels are not as suitable for accelerating from stops, but from my personal experience working City of Truro on the GCRN (which would be 567's base) it is perfectly capable of the demands placed on it there, and there is no reason to assume a similarly-sized, similarly-powerful new design would not be similarly useful for a preserved railway.

    Also (and I know this may well be unlikely), but I don't think anybody could deny that, should the opportunity arise to double head 567 with Butler Henderson, especially if coupled to a train of original GC coaches, it would be a rather nice thing to behold! Personally, I myself am just glad there's an initiative going to expand the pool of GC locos available, and I can't wait to the day when I get the opportunity to fire, or even drive her!
     
  16. aron33

    aron33 Member

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    [​IMG]
    Like this?
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That piccie's caption on Wikipedia describes it as 'The latest Cambrian Passenger Express Locomotive, circa 1921". To my mind, it looks like an official portrait and if so, that date isn't anywhere close to right!

    If I'm reading the number plate correctly, No 94 was the first of five Stephenson products of 1904 and only lasted until 1928 (the last going in 1933). Whether that says anything about the design's prowess, or withdrawl by the GWR was merely the inevitable fate of so small a non-standard class, I don't know, but don't recall a single reference to any outstanding Cambrian loco design.

    Looking at the proportions, the firebox looks a tad longer than you might expect, but I'd have thought that unless the design was 'over shod', that should have been a reasonable steamer. The short smokebox is fairly typical of late Victorian practice and perhaps a clue lies in the fact that they bore a strong resemblance to (among others) the original forms of classes P, PP and Q by Charles Clifford of the GNRI, all of which were rebuilt with superheaters and piston valves under the aegis of his successor, George Glover. In rebuilt form, unlike the never rebuilt Cambrian design, all three GNRI classes lasted well.
     
  18. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    The larger Cambrian 0-6-0's , or for that matter, the 4-4-0's, would be ideal for the majority of todays preserved lines. Maximum speeds of 25mph and 5 or 6 Mk1 coaches would hardly tax the designs... Don't forget some of the later built locos survived until the 1950's, hardly flawed designs. The 4-4-0's that lasted until the GWR's purge of the 1930's were often replaced by similar ancient designs ousted by newer locos from Swindon

    edit: The GWR archive somehow lists the two original VoR tanks last sheds:
    1214 shed on grouping: Banbury shed on withdrawal; Oxley
    1215 shed on grouping: Newport shed on withdrawal: Severn Tunnel

    A VoR tank in original condition would be nice to see as well...
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Indeed. I've several shots of 3206 "Barnum" class 2-4-0's on Cambrian Coast freight and passenger workings in post-grouping days. The last pair of these twenty 1889 Dean locos made it to 1937.

    The best shot of a "Barnum" I can find is this, taken at (the still with us) Knowle & Dorridge Stn (image from warwickshirerailways.com):

    gwrkd1629.jpg.cf.jpg
     
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  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Only the 0--6-0s I believe. and that reboilered. I think the Cambrian 4-4-0s were all gone by 1932, and the last absorbed 4-4-0s were absorbed North British built MSWJR ones in 1938. They must have been about equivalent to a GWR Bulldog looking at the figures.
     
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