MNLPS/Clan Line 2018 Programme

Big Al · 4 Dezember 2017

Zitat von Where's Mazeppa?: ↑

,,,,,,,,a resort to eleventh hour marketing via e-mails that offer discounts/ promotional codes etc that in the end just admit that the original product/ proposition was compromised and failed to generate the hoped-for take-up because it just wasn't worth the price or didn't offer the value to its potential customers that its promoters had originally envisaged.
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It's just worth mentioning, but not really appropriate to be developed on here, that tried, tested and proven itineraries (like the TBEx, Lunch Circulars and CME) stand most chance of success although some enthusiasts may find them rather repetitive. It's probably the case that whilst you can still go to unusual places and up freight lines with many diesel tours, that's now becoming increasingly unlikely with steam. The odd adventure such as the trip to Buxton and Hindlow next March may become increasingly rare.

AnthonyTrains2017 · 5 Dezember 2017

Would a merchant not be too heavy for the WSR?

black5 · 5 Dezember 2017

Zitat von AnthonyTrains2017: ↑

Would a merchant not be too heavy for the WSR?
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Canadian Pacific has visited in the past.

derby2 · 5 Dezember 2017

Zitat von black5: ↑

Canadian Pacific has visited in the past.
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and its axle weight is no heavier than Tornado or Flying Scotsman.

MellishR · 6 Dezember 2017

Zitat von derby2: ↑

I think most people posting on here have - accurately - covered the pros and cons of running one way or both ways with steam from London to Minehead. As a couple have pointed out, the raison d'être of the trip is to position "Clan Line" in readiness for the two 'Torbay Express' operations in June, but it is worthwhile examining what time a trip like this would get back if it was steam out & back.
As I mentioned earlier, both MNLPS and UKR believe that having got to a chosen destination, there should be a reasonable break of around 3 hours there - occasionally a bit more. Only a small proportion of 'hard-core' steam enthusiasts want to be on the go all day covering as many miles as possible. You can get away with a very long day on a 'CME' operation from London, with maybe only 90 minutes or so in Carlisle. There really is no alternative to an early start/late finish on this itinerary, but it sells itself on a steam section over a line that a large proportion of the population are aware of. With most (not all) other itineraries it's a case of the destination being the major attraction for most customers and the route secondary, though I accept of course that for many who post on this forum that isn't necessarily the case. It just depends who you are targeting for each trip.
Just supposing we were to come back all the way with steam, lets look at the likely scenario. It's an almost certain bet that we will copy the 60009 path of 12th August, therefore leave Paddington at 08.08, arr BL just before 13.00, fit into the 13.15 path from there and arrive Minehead circa 14.40. So that's 6 & half hours Paddn to Minehead. For the return, it's likely the path to BL will be a bit quicker, as there are no WSR services to cross, and possibly one of the water stops might be slightly shorter. Let's say with a clear run on the GWML it could be done in 6 hours - but that still gives an arrival back at Paddington at 10 minutes to midnight! Notwithstanding that the vast majority of passengers joining/alighting there would regard the streets - or public transport - of London as something they don't wish to sample at that time of a Saturday night, we're also dicing with engineering blocks that may well prevent "Clan Line" getting back to base at Stewarts Lane. Even if it can, there isn't a big 'Hornby hand' to magically make it happen in the blink of an eye, with the result that the support crew will be looking at a 'tour of duty' not far short of 24 hours! Far too long I think everyone would agree. Coming back from BL with a with a Class 67 gives the opportunity of running at up to 100 mph, and with no need of water stops we should be back in London by 22.00 or just after - having enjoyed getting on for 8 hours of "Clan Line" earlier in the day.
Eastleigh-Salisbury-Yeovil shuttles were mentioned. Sadly, that won't be happening in Spring 2018. Many within the MNLPS were supportive, but it was felt not appropriate for MNLPS to take the financial risk of promoting such an operation whilst we still owed money to supporters who had given loans to ensure the timely completion of the overhaul. These loans will all be repaid during 2018, so it is hoped the idea will be re-visited.
A final point of interest regarding steam tours generally. Some people have previously pointed out that it isn't the case that all the 'gricers' travel in standard class, and the 'normals' in dining. Dining virtually always sells out first, and many of those certainly do class themselves as enthusiasts. In fact John Farrow has told me that just as many in the dining section have a bit of a grumble when they're at the rear and can't hear the engine, as those in Standard when it's the other way round! Who'd be a promoter?!
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Sorry it I seem to be harping on, but The Cornishman left Paddington at 08:03 and was scheduled to pass Norton Fitzwarren at 1048, actually passing a few minutes earlier, i.e. well inside three hours. Even allowing for having to run into the down loop and wait for a path across to the up side, it should be possible to reach BL in well under four hours. Why would Clan Line take nearly five? Is it all down to different water capacities?

Big Al · 6 Dezember 2017

Zitat von MellishR: ↑

Sorry it I seem to be harping on, but The Cornishman left Paddington at 08:03 and was scheduled to pass Norton Fitzwarren at 1048, actually passing a few minutes earlier, i.e. well inside three hours. Even allowing for having to run into the down loop and wait for a path across to the up side, it should be possible to reach BL in well under four hours. Why would Clan Line take nearly five? Is it all down to different water capacities?
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Off the top of my head the factors that would make a difference are:
- leaving Victoria rather than Paddington
- taking far longer than 40 minutes to get to the Reading pick up. An hour or so would be closer.
- slotting into a path that gives you time to pause at Taunton.

I don't think you are comparing like with like and I don't think that water is necessarily the issue although you could see a Castle Cary/Taunton water stop being added as well as Newbury if the MN were continuing to Minehead. Take a look at any timings for the RTC West Somerset trips as a good indicator. Four and a half hours to Bishops Lydeard is a pretty good average rather than your sub four hours suggestion.

MellishR · 7 Dezember 2017

Zitat von Big Al: ↑

Off the top of my head the factors that would make a difference are:
- leaving Victoria rather than Paddington
- taking far longer than 40 minutes to get to the Reading pick up. An hour or so would be closer.
- slotting into a path that gives you time to pause at Taunton.

I don't think you are comparing like with like and I don't think that water is necessarily the issue although you could see a Castle Cary/Taunton water stop being added as well as Newbury if the MN were continuing to Minehead. Take a look at any timings for the RTC West Somerset trips as a good indicator. Four and a half hours to Bishops Lydeard is a pretty good average rather than your sub four hours suggestion.
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Running from and to Victoria would indeed explain the extra time; but both clan-line.org.uk and uksteam say it's from Paddington.

However thank you for the suggestion of looking at RTC trips. I have compared the one on 12 August to The Cornishman on 29 May.
(scheduled times from uksteam):
29 May 2017 Paddington to Newbury 63 minutes with one stop, at Reading for 2 minutes
12 August 2017 Paddington to Newbury 131 minutes with two stops, at Slough for zero(?) minutes and at Reading for 16 minutes

That indicates that it's all down to pathing, with The Cornishman getting a good path and the RTC trip a very bad one.

derby2 · 8 Dezember 2017

Zitat von MellishR: ↑

Running from and to Victoria would indeed explain the extra time; but both clan-line.org.uk and uksteam say it's from Paddington.

However thank you for the suggestion of looking at RTC trips. I have compared the one on 12 August to The Cornishman on 29 May.
(scheduled times from uksteam):
29 May 2017 Paddington to Newbury 63 minutes with one stop, at Reading for 2 minutes
12 August 2017 Paddington to Newbury 131 minutes with two stops, at Slough for zero(?) minutes and at Reading for 16 minutes

That indicates that it's all down to pathing, with The Cornishman getting a good path and the RTC trip a very bad one.
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I can confirmed that the "Clan Line" trip is definitely intended to run from Paddington, not Victoria. As regards pathing, you cannot compare the schedule that "Tornado" had on the Cornishman last May with what we require next May. The A1ST specifically required the fastest possible pathway, and the major factor in achieving that is only stopping when you absolutely have to. The UKR/MNLPS trip by comparison requires pick up stops at both Slough and Reading, so immediately that makes it more difficult to fit in with scheduled services.
Water capacity for 60163 and 35028 is about the same, but it is undeniable that "Tornado" is more economical that "Clan Line" - in fact it has a better miles per gallon return than any other big main line loco. Add in the fact that "Clan Line" will be hauling a heavier load than "Tornado" did in May then it would not be prudent to try to get from Paddington to Bishops Lydeard with just one waterstop. We might well achieve it, but our calculations are always based on a contingency of still having at least 1,000 gallons in the tender on arrival at a waterstop.
The other element affecting this is that even if we did replicate the Cornishman path, what's the point? The only path available on the WSR is the 13.15 ex BL as mentioned before, so nothing at all to be gained by turning up there the best part of 2 hours early! Rest assured, within the requirement of the two pick up stops and two waterstops, we'll still be working towards getting the best possible path to provide for some spirited running.

MellishR · 8 Dezember 2017

Zitat von derby2: ↑

I can confirmed that the "Clan Line" trip is definitely intended to run from Paddington, not Victoria. As regards pathing, you cannot compare the schedule that "Tornado" had on the Cornishman last May with what we require next May. The A1ST specifically required the fastest possible pathway, and the major factor in achieving that is only stopping when you absolutely have to. The UKR/MNLPS trip by comparison requires pick up stops at both Slough and Reading, so immediately that makes it more difficult to fit in with scheduled services.
Water capacity for 60163 and 35028 is about the same, but it is undeniable that "Tornado" is more economical that "Clan Line" - in fact it has a better miles per gallon return than any other big main line loco. Add in the fact that "Clan Line" will be hauling a heavier load than "Tornado" did in May then it would not be prudent to try to get from Paddington to Bishops Lydeard with just one waterstop. We might well achieve it, but our calculations are always based on a contingency of still having at least 1,000 gallons in the tender on arrival at a waterstop.
The other element affecting this is that even if we did replicate the Cornishman path, what's the point? The only path available on the WSR is the 13.15 ex BL as mentioned before, so nothing at all to be gained by turning up there the best part of 2 hours early! Rest assured, within the requirement of the two pick up stops and two waterstops, we'll still be working towards getting the best possible path to provide for some spirited running.
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Thank you for that clear and comprehensive exlpanation.
Now I just need to decide whether to book on this trip.

Western Venturer · 29 Mai 2018

Clan Line on its way to Bristol to work the first Torbay of the year this weekend..

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