Tracking down a Beames (LNWR) LMS 380 Class 0-8-4T

I'm trying to track down the history of the locomotive in this picture. It was taken at Tebay, sometime between 1923 and 1945.

My Great Grandfather, John Goldsmith is the gentleman on the right of the crew. I know he drove for the LNWR and then the LMS between 1901 and 1939 from Census and Union records. He died in 1945 so it cannot be later than that.

It appears to be a Beames (LNWR) LMS 380 Class 0-8-4T but frustratingly the identification number is not in the picture.

Apparently the first thirteen appeared in black livery lined in red and white, with LMS initials on the tank sides but LNWR number plates on the bunker, which would suggest it is between 7930 and 7942

I've also found information suggesting that engines up to 7942 had encased Ramsbottom safety valves which seems to fit the picture as well but beyond that I'm not sure how else to narrow it down.

looking at the RailUK database it looks like most of those are accounted for elsewhere at the BR change over apart from 7942 but I'm wondering if there is any way of finding out which of those engines was allocated to Tebay before the change over?

 

I'm not sure, when you refer to the RailUK database if you mean the brdatabase.info site.

If not, this might help a little, though it is essentially post nationalisation and doesn't give any earlier allocation detail.

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=408401&type=S&page=fleet

 

That is one of the sources I looked at but none of the sources show these locos being at Tebay at all, which this one obviously is.

I'm not sure where to go to find pre-nationalisation info, if any exists at all.

 

I suggest you contact the LNWR Society. They have some images of 0-8-4 tanks online at http://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p937965167 (but none seem to be at Tebay).

 

Found a useful footnote in Edward Talbot's book on the LNWR Eight-Coupled Goods Engines p212.

"The first seven engines to be built were allocated to Abergavenny on entering service, as were three of the following six also, but Nos. 739, 468 and 793 were sent first to shed '28', Tebay. Presumably, they were tried on banking up to Shap summit but were transferred, probably quite soon, to Abegavenny."

That explains why they have been so tricky to track down at Tebay and narrows the picture down to some time shortly after 1923 and one of just three engines ( 468 => LMS 7940, 793 => LMS 7943 and 739 => LMS 7937 => BR 47937 )

I suspect that may be as close as I can trace this particular engine.

 

Also from Ted Talbot's L&NWR Eight-Coupled Goods Engines, it seems that of the three engines sent to Tebay, only one of them was painted with LNWR lining and 'LMS' on the tank-sides, as seen in the photograph; the other two were in plain black. So this one must be No 739.

The date is almost certainly 1923 when the engine was brand new. Possibly in May, when No 739 went "to stock".

 

Thank you, have you got the page number for that? I must have missed it.

 

Ah.. Got it now.

It was my arithmetic that was at fault, not my eyes.

Well spotted and thank you for your help.

 

As it is a posed photograph and the date is around when they were introduced it strikes me that it might be an official/semi-official photo and so there might be more in the archives about it. Perhaps a report about the arrival of the locos in Tebay?

 

No problem! Glad it was possible to find an answer.

I guess they had the photo taken because it was the first of the typr they'd seen. Or maybe the first engine lettered with the initials of the new company: 'LMS'.

 

You are probably right. John had been in the LNWR for about 45 years by then so it must have been a bit of a novelty.

 

If you could find anything from Tebay from this period (and you have quite a narrow period) in the archives you might find an interesting story. Union records from the period or local newspapers?

 

I have a number of family connections to the area, four generations of my family worked on the Railway at Tebay so I've gleaned quite a bit while following the family history.

John joined the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants (ASRS) before it became the NUR. And I've tracked his career through the census' and the 1939 register. This is the only shot I have of him with a Loco but I do have one of my Grandfather with a Fowler 2-6-4T which was one of the Banking engines there a little later.

 

Have you had a look at the NUR archives down in Warwick? My guess would be any info would be there or in the local archives/local history at Tebay.

https://mrc.epexio.com/records/NUR

 

I have access to them through one of the genealogy search engines I use which gave me some data but I also have some keepsakes kept by my Nan which pointed me in the right direction.

On the left here are both sides of his silver/enamelled watch fob which he probably received on joining the union.

People history is usually my thing. Tracking down locomotives is new territory for me, but very interesting.

 

Thanks for these further photos, Wayland: fascinating stuff!

I suppose you've already tracked down LMS 2424: built Jan. 1934 and the very last of the 2-6-4 tanks with a parallel boiler. (From 2525 onward this class were given taper boilers.)

Fixing the exact date of this photo won't be so straightforward, or at least not (so far as I know) from the engine's details.

 

Interesting thread & photos. I can't add anything of value I'm afraid but the LNWR has always been of interest to me as I had two relatives who worked for the company; my Great-Grandfather (surname Edwards) who started his career as a signalman on the line down to Swansea, I believe not long before the LMS was formed, and finished as signalling inspector at Stafford. And on the other side of the family a Great-Great Uncle (I think) (surname Holmes) who was a driver, I presume in the north west somewhere but not entirely sure. (Family story was that he drove 'Hardwicke' but I've no proof of that.)
If you do stumble across anything about driver Holmes during your research I'd be interested! (Will have to check his first name.)

 

If you have any idea of his rough Date of birth or when and where he was working that would help narrow things down as well

I've got union records for 4907 "Holmes'" and 8593 for "Edwards'".

 

Yes, LMS 2424 was certainly easier to trace but the picture more difficult to date. It's obviously before nationalisation but 1934 to 48 is still a wide range.

Fred Waidson, my Grandfather, was a stationary engineman at 21 according to the 1911 census and definitely a driver by the 1939 Register. He appears not to have joined the unions unlike most of my other relatives about that time.

The census records in between these dates are still sealed of course, so it is difficult to be sure exactly when he started driving. He died shortly before Tebay closed and I never met him unfortunately.

 

The livery on LMS lined black engines like the 4P tanks did change a bit with time, especially the figures which had different shadings and went through a sans serif period.
There's an excellent book series by Essery & Jenkinson called An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, the final part is the LMS Standard classes. Anyone with a copy of that may be able to say if 2424 changed livery style and hence narrow it down a bit.