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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    ..... not to mention the rather more ample waistlines these days than one sees in wartime photos (sez a podgy old codger)! ;)
     
  2. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    One reason for this could be that officer's uniforms were their own property whilst those of "other ranks" got handed back to the stores. Thus officer's uniforms tended to be inherited by families and found their way into costume hire and museum collections. Hence the imbalance you refer to.

    PH
     
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  3. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I suspect it's more because people like dressing up as a captain rather more than a private! (See that Dad's army episode where Captain Mainwairing gets demoted!).
     
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  4. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    I would offer a different reason. There are some parallels between the military vehicle/re-enactment scene and heritage steam railways in that all of us are not getting any younger and there are not enough ‘20 somethings’ in the hobby. Also most of us who have military vehicles also want to look the part in correct uniform, the same as footplate crews, Guards, Station Staff etc. so we wear the appropriate uniforms. Mine below is a Private from the 6th AARR which was a Reconnaissance / Airborne Armour unit in WW2, it goes with an Armoured Car I have.

    This uniform as most are today is a modern repo in the same way as most uniforms in the heritage steam railway world, many of us don’t risk damaging what are now very expensive originals these days when moving around and jumping in and out of vehicles. The repro ones are very accurate right down to the labels (be very careful when buying originals from certain auction web-sites !!).

    As for the Officer / Private (Squaddie) balance here is the dilemma, Officers were usually older and Privates tended to be much younger, so many people today in the hobby buy Officers uniforms to try and keep it at least in part realistic. Having said that the three of us in British uniforms on Friday were all wearing normal ‘Squaddies’ uniforms, I can only speak for myself in saying that of course made me a very old Squaddie with an expanding waist line !!!!!!!


    DSCN8744.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  5. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Nothing to do with peoples delusions of grandeur then?

    Peter
     
  6. Indeed. When first approached, I was not willing to cover the events on wsr.org.uk But after discussion with the organisers it was this ruling - already in place - that persuaded me to publish pics and words. And so far I am much impressed with the work of the organisers in their efforts to portray Somerset as it was in the 1940s. I hope it is a great success.

    Steve
     
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  7. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Just a few people having some harmless fun along with the train adding a bit of interest for the passengers. Nowt wrong with that!
     
  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Whilst there would be an an element of truth in this, you are both being rather too cynical/chippy about it! In the area I live in, with strong R.N. connections, there will be a surprising number of uniforms, long unworn, which will find themselves into costume hire services upon the demise of the owner. Similarly I knew someone who kept his W.W.1 R.F.C. uniforms for decades before donating them to Hendon Museum, including a flying jacket which showed the alterations necessary to enable him, a small man, to get into an S.E.5A!

    PH
     
  9. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    What puts me off the idea of having military reenactors at railway events is that they are, obviously, acting, and this is clear to members of the public. Said members of the public then assume that the people operating the railway are then just "acting" or "pretending" too.
     
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  10. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    The reality is that there were a number of German POW’s working in Somerset during the war particularly on the land.. I know of at least one who remained in a village close to the WSR after the war, married a local girl, and remained here until his death. I don’t understand why people are so precious about the subject.
     
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  11. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    Thought provoking; I can appreciate that a production of 'Twelth Night' on the platform at Minehead would be interpreted by 'the man ( does it have to be person in 2018?) on the Clapham Omnibus' as just that; a play that merely takes advantage of the station as a suitable venue. A production of the 'Railway Children' at the same venue would still be regarded as a play probably ? A 1940s style military parade/happening, might as you suggest be considered as another example of the Railway modus operandi ?

    I admit to having always had reservations concerning Heritage Railway 'Military style 1940s weekends', I think probably for emotional reasons. However the possible suggestion that they might engender, indeed cement the idea, that we (volunteers) are all 'playing at Railways' perhaps is a concern ?

    Michael Rowe
     
  12. Nice story, Peter. Although born after the end of WWII, my childhood in a small Dorset village was enriched by the German ex-POW who continued to work the land after the end of hostilities. As kids still living with rationing and hearing many tales of the horrors of war, the chance to speak to a real German was a revelation, and we kids came to realise that German people were good people - as indeed they still are and always will be. Of course, any group, anywhere, will have their exceptions as the world's sad history will testify.

    My particular objection is to the appearance of folks in Axis garb. As explained above, POWs would be less of an issue for me. Nevertheless, I think the organisers of the West Somerset 1940s events are right to have that ruling. And I like to think my German friend would agree.

    Steve
     
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Long before I'd been anywhere near the WSR (I nearly said West Somerset, then remembered my late great-uncle who lived within sight of the railway in Taunton), I'd come across the issue of "playing trains" in connection with the WSR - Paul Theroux's "Kingdom by the Sea". As an observer, I still consider that operation of preserved railways is a combination of real operating and "playing trains" - and none the worse for that. If visitors think that the staff are "just pretending", then that should be a challenge to help them understand the real work that goes into operating a railway.

    Though - as with other such events elsewhere - I shall not be paying my money for that weekend, I wish what seems to be a well and thoughtfully planned event well.
     
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  14. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Peter, avoiding the prejudicial route taken by those usually far too young to have been in any war, other than in Afghanistan, I suggest that those - and that includes me - who lived during WW2, irrespective of age or military service, might have strong feelings especially if their families were torn apart and destroyed as a result of the hostilities. You will know, as a Ham that it is usually a pleasure in contacting 'D' stations, but however pleasant that may be I draw a line to Axis uniforms at events such as yours. I was pleased to read the comments by the organisers about the restriction of said dress.
     
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  15. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Not to mention the long hair styles of a good many males. ;)
     
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  16. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    It’s not the people, it’s the organisation they represent. My grandfather, at whose feet I learned much of what WW2 was like for those closely involved, fought with the Rifle Brigade, landed in France just after D-Day and was at the front pretty much all the time until the following May. He, like most of his unit, was drawn from east London, and his ‘best mate’ when they were Corporals, was a German Jew called Shutz who had wisely come to London in the early 30’s. Sadly, Cpl Shutz MM was killed during the advance into Belgium by an accidental discharge of his own sten gun when he dropped it. I visit his war cemetery grave occasionally.

    Later, 8th Rifle Brigade were part of 11th Armoured Division which liberated Bergen-Belsen. Grandfather, by then a Sergeant, was the third British serviceman through the gates.

    I was privileged, until a few years ago, to be invited in his stead to the annual reunion lunch his Company comrades held at the Davies Street Barracks in London. Their numbers steadily dwindled each year until, well into this century, they were too few to carry on. I had the privilege of asking the old soldiers and the one thing they wanted was to be remembered, including those who did not come back, after they had gone. Handled correctly, these events help achieve that. So they are a ‘good thing’ IMHO.

    Do we heritage railwaymen ‘play trains’? Yes, of course we do. Steam engines, serge uniforms and mechanical lever frames? If we provide a good day out, and teach a few folk something about the history of our Railways, that will do for me.

    Robin
     
  17. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Michael & Forestpines

    Are we not all recreating something that doesn’t exist now, so could all be accused of “pretending” to some degree? After all most heritage railways go from nowhere to nowhere taking people who in the main want just an experience of the past. What about the many photographers who come to the WSR who are looking for a ‘clean’ photo with nothing modern in it, are they also not trying to recreate something that is past not present, is that defined as real or acting?

    I’m sure you and many others ‘wince’ when you somebody says you are just ‘playing trains’ so why is it ok to say the same of another hobby? Perhaps all railway enthusiasts and military enthusiasts are doing exactly the same thing. Are all just enjoying a hobby which is recreating history and saving it for future generations, surely everything we do is about ensuring a legacy exists for the people who come after us whilst enjoying our hobby at the same time, surely that can only be positive not ‘just playing soldiers’ or ‘playing trains’.

    I can speak for very many in the military collector circuit, when I say we spend a lot of time informing and educating. I often go into Schools doing that and spend a lot of time around Remembrance Sunday using my collection to add another dimension to ‘lest we forget’. Most of us are in fact pacifists who have seen the futility of war and use our hobby as a live and mobile museum to inform and educate so we do not forget how things were and the sacrifices many endured so today everybody can hold such opinions and state them in public freely.

    This line of thought seems to suggest that people involved with Heritage Railways are a cut above those who ‘pretend’ to have a hobby and railways should not be involved with less serious hobbies, this seems a bit excluding and elitist if you don’t mind me saying.

    We have all chosen to enjoy our hobbies, both these and many other hobbies keep history alive, they educate the adults of tomorrow, leave a legacy and give todays ‘customers’ something to enjoy and spend their money on which keeps it all going for the future.

    Perhaps those in one hobby should not look down on those in another hobby, as perhaps both have an equal present and future value to give to society. If you don’t think that is the case allow me to take you some 1940’s shows in the UK, a couple of which attract over 200,000 paying customers over a four day period and then you can tell me that you are concerned that pretending to play soldiers is less popular than the much more serious business of playing trains.

    Rant over, gets off soap box!
     
  18. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    I understand your point entirely but nevertheless German and Italian POW’s were moved by train across the U.K. still wearing their respective uniforms during WW2 so the uniforms would be authentic. As it happens both my uncle and great uncle were held captive in Germany in WW1, one as a civilian internee and the other as a POW. My great uncle died before I was born but my uncle spoke well of the Germans he met after WW2. Despite the horrors of war in the last century we need to keep a sense of proportion. On balance the ban on Axis uniforms is probably wise but not an open and shut case.
     
  19. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Don’t tempt me to suggest the use that Butlins might be put at a future event. The barbed wire does face inward, doesn’t it?

    Robin
     
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  20. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    I used to talk to the German POW's as a child when watching them widen a small river bank and dig trenches for gas lighting in a rural part of Warwickshire. I used to be amazed at the chunk of cheese they often had for their mid-day meal particularly when the ration for us was about the size of a Swan Vestas matchbox - and that was for the week!
     
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