LMS Hughes Crab 42859

There are obviously different grades of turn so the likes of Shap where interfacing with high speed electric trains occurs would not fit a Crab but Hellifield to Carlisle return might not raise too many concerns. Equally the circuit out of Carnforth, Borders line, FW Mallaig, Cumbrian Coast etc woukd present few difficulties even at load 11 I would hazard.

 

So how much you looking at for a new boiler and firebox then £150000 or has it gone up now.
Seems everyone agrees its a great loco to save, if that's remotely possible. Mainline or Caulden Lowe, or a brace on the ELR, or Keighley, or anywhere in the traditional region.

 

Hearing reports it's been scrapped....
How many more are woebegone and abandoned?

 

Reports from whom? If true, why? Given the interest in this loco would it not be better for the owner to sell it to a group or another individual rather than weigh it in for scrap? Perhaps the owner is suspicious of well-meaning railway enthusiasts who don't have the money to buy what, after all, is his property.

 

S'pose it comes down to what purpose the present owner had in mind when he bought the loco. I can't help remembering the ultimate demise of P.S.Ryde (the last IoW paddle steamer), which came down to unpaid mooring fees far exceeding any possible value of what remained, rotting away, in the Medina.

Have all the legal issues surrounding the Crab's ownership and potential liens been resolved?

 

The loco and tender chassis plus all wheels except a pair of driving wheels were transferred to the Lincolnshire wolds railway from Binbrook, the boiler was taken and scrapped in lieu of an outstanding storage fees dispute whilst at Binbrook, where the missing pair of driving have gone is unknown.

 

Wasn't the police involved over the theft of parts of the locomotive ? if my memory is right, it was unclear at the time if the person who caimed ownership of the industrial estate on the old air field actually legally owned it? one thing that i am unsure of was the boiler taken by with the consent of the loco owner because wasn't it hidden by the scrapper before being cut up? at the time there was also talk of a criminal enterprise involving the " site owner" the scrap yard owner and the person who stole the driving wheel set ,when the police found one set in a warehouse , didn't the loco axle boxes disappear also?

 

The boiler I'd read about (I understand it was past knackered in any event - it'd be too depressing to think otherwise), but the 'wheels thing' was confusing me. Cheers for the clarification.

 

The loco owner called in the police when the boiler went missing, after enquiries the boiler was found in a scrapyard in the Immingham area along with some other loco parts but there was no mention of wheels, as the owner either did not want to pay or never had the cash to pay for the rent dispute the boiler etc were left on site, all this information I got from a volunteer at the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway when I visited about two years ago.

 

Quite why a wealthy brewery owner from down south would have it at Hull and scrap it Binbrook, together with a large collection of railwayana which was apparently bonfired, is beyond me. The RAF Binbrook people were horrified by it all.And a wealthy person could have paid up a bit of back rent. If as is stated he was at dairycoats in 1968 he must have been an elderly gentleman, who may have passed on or become unfit to manage his affairs. Who sold the valuable parts to a scrappy. It all smells rotten. But as a civil dispute, no one has a right to the owner's decisions, even if they seem truly bizarre. For all we know it could have been an Executor who didnt realise the heritage value. And the Wolds Railway have none of it, according to them. If the owner was a rich man who has spited preservation, name and shame. If they were vulnerable elderly, people(Police people) need to know. And current loco owners, make provision- the loco will likely outlast you and youhave to consider this!

 

Why are you assuming the owner is wealthy? Ownership of a company (brewery or otherwise) does not make someone wealthy (as many have found to their peril)

Keith

 

Although the owner has the same surname as a brewing family there is nothing to tie him in with them, for a start the owner apparently lives in the east of England, I got the impression from the volunteers at the Lincolnshire Wold line that the owner was quite well known to them, he may even be a volunteer on the said railway.

 

Yes I need it for sight but the Wolds spoksman said it had never gone there and been cut. Might be worth a day out as its I think the only Great Northern heritage line and has a fascinating history

 

I think if the preservation movement wants another 'Crab' -and why not, they are excellent locos that could do anything a preserved line is likely to want - then building a replica is the way to go. And it could be given a proper matching tender (L&YR Dreadnought design) instead of the Fowler embarrassment.

 

Why not use what’s left of 42859 as a start point? the frames still exist. See your point on the tender, but it would be totally wrong, they never ran with anything other than the 3500 gallon Fowler version

 

Starting point is to find out what parts of 42859 still exist, exactly where they are, and establish contact and dialogue with the owner (if the owner is willing to participate in dialogue to save this locomotive). Then try to find somewhere safe to keep the parts together. Does anyone know for sure that a set of driving wheels is missing? Last photos I saw taken at Binbrook showed 3 driving wheelsets plus the frames and tender.

Richard.

 

I don't see why it would be 'wrong' - you could just as easily make a case for it to run with the type of tender it was originally intended to have, before it was interfered with by Derby. The proper width tender would not only give the crews a bit more weather protection when running tender first, but also make it safer for the firemen when doing a token exchange on the move, as he (or she) would have something to brace both shoulders against.

And I can't help but remember that one group is un-rebuilding a Spam Can which was rebuilt by BR, in a valid attempt to correct many of the weaknesses in the original design. Where will that one stand on the scale of authenticity, I wonder?

Re. Spam Cans: in case anyone is wondering about my qualifications for criticising Mr Bulleid's design - no, I've never fired one, nor even had a footplate trip on one. But my poor opinion of what one Southern shedmaster described as "The CME's clockwork mice!" is based on the experience and opinions of Bert Hooker, who fired the 'Merchant Navy' in the Loco Exchange Trials in 1948, followed by years more firing them (original and rebuilt) on top link turns. I had the privilege (and I don't use that word lightly) of meeting Mr Hooker some years back, and had a lengthy chat with him about the Spam Cans, and he went into quite some detail about their failings. Further, he expressed the opinion that the only reason their loco did so well in the exchanges was that Driver Swain "was an artist with that reverser". Bert said they were tricky enough to deal with when freshly out-shopped, but could be a nightmare when worn.

But going back to the Crab - having watched 13065 at work on the East Lancs Railway, I'd say they are very well suited to running on preserved lines, and look very much at home running at 25mph, which isn't the case with express locos with driving wheels a foot larger. I have a DVD which includes an interview with a retired driver who used Crabs on freight turns, and he described them as very forgiving and dependable engines, which could slog as hard as a Black 5 - though obviously they didn't have the speed of a 5. But, he said, even if you had a clinkered grate, duff coal, and soupy boiler water, and your fireman couldn't keep the pressure up to the mark, a Crab would keep going - whereas, he said, if the pressure dropped back to the same degree on a Black 5, she'd really be struggling.

I stress that this was the driver's clearly expressed opinion, not mine! (I hope I can save enough to have a footplate experience turn on the ELR's Crab, one day - I think she's a superb piece of kit!)

 

Well, the original plan was for a Caledonian design of 2-6-0, so by that logic you could build one of those and call it a Crab also.

The Crabs were quite a lot better locos at low speed slogging than a Black Five: they were noticeably stronger and much more sure footed. This advantage waned after about 50mph, when the Black 'un became the better of the two, but remember that when introduced, and for quite a few years after, the Crabs worked many of the LMS expresses. If nothing else, they were versatile.

 

This photo (dated 13/1/11) of two pairs of driving wheels at RAF Binbrook appeared on RMWeb recently. I presume the photo was taken after the third pair 'disappeared'. Ray.