4472 What colour

Would be popular on tours to Brighton I'd imagine... :-k

 

Just going off on a thought trail here, but why not do that with a rough undercoat once it has been overhauled? Leave off the smoke deflectors for a week or two and then fit them and do the final re-paint in LNER apple green. If you time it right you could even get a war themed event around it...

Regards,

Dan

 

Blast - beat me to it....

Used to be very much in favour of it being returned to final BR livery but I have to say I've got used to the apple green/ double chimney form and quite like it (runs for cover....). As someone has already said, this was the form it was 'preserved in'. Not authentic for when it was used BR but how it was used as a privately owned steam loco working trains for VSOE etc. Preservation now has it's own history I guess....

What does bother me a little is that, if I remember correctly, there are no plans to fit any sort of vacuum braking to loco again after overhaul. I have to say I think that is a bit of a shame as it will surely limit 4472s visits to preserved lines where the public can get 'up-close and personal' with the loco.

Couldn't a similar arrangement be fitted to the loco as on Duchess of Sutherland where she still retains some sort of small ejector (sorry, someone please correct me if I've got the technology wrong!) so she can work vacuum braked stock on a branchline at 25mph (but not on the mainline)?

Do all the vac braking 'bits' that came of Scotsman during her rebuild in the late 90s still exist?

 

6233 has a small and large ejector, as does Bittern, and can and indeed will be hauling vac trains on the mainline for Steam Dreams in the summer. It is the same principle as a dual braked diesel, albeit with ejectors rather than an exhauster, with the vacuum controlled by the air system

 

Thanks for that!

 

It should be remembered that there would not have been an example of this class preserved if it had not been for Alan Pegler. He has always stated that he prefers single chimney, apple green, 4472.
If you look back over 84 years of the locomotive's life I think that this is the livery that it has carried for longer than all others?
On a more personal note watching (as a seven year old) the BBC documentary of the 1968 non-stop KX - Edinburgh run fired (excuse the pun) my interest in steam locomotives.

So single chimney, apple green, 4472 it is for me...

 

Missed that lil comment from you... I must be getting slow...

Brighton to Manchester perhaps. Well i think there could be a market for it - you know what they say about the pink pound!

 

Does that mean...... 8-[

Apple green for me please, too many of these BR liveries around these days - though experimental BR blue would look good. Were any A3s ever painted in this livery? ('scuse my ignorance!)

 

Yes, Flying Scotsman was herself painted in this livery for a couple of years, this livery was mooted when NRM first got their hands on 4472 as an authentic livery, however we have since found out that Flying Scotsman is a 'Special Case' and so their authenticity policy isnt the same for it! :-k [-(

I just hope the NRM suprise us and return her in apple green with single chimney!

 

As has been said its an association thing, joe public recongises the loco in LNER Green and it would be daft to put it in anything else. This aside how is the overhaul progressing, I heard the tube plate is the sticking point on the boiler at the moment?

 

If you belive some of the guff written about the 'need' for the double chimney you might get the impression that it was miraculous that 4472 could move itself at all in single chimney condition. The fact remains that EVERY single achievement for which the loco is famous was done in single chimney form. If it can do a ton on Stoke bank, run nonstop to Edinburgh repeatedly (let's not forget, May 1928 wasn't a one off event...) and make the world's longest non stop steam run, I don't think there can really be a lot wrong with the single chimney design.

If you have poor coal supplies, limited maintainance and you want to move trains heavier and longer than those the engine is likly to haul in the next few years then the better draughting arrangments are obviously an advantage. But it isn't the mid 1950s anymore, and the engine will be in better mechanical condition and more steam tight than it ever was in BR days.

To this day, no one has managed to explain why it worked perfectly well in single chimney form for so many years, yet apparently now would be unable to pill the skin off some custard if put back in that form. Me thinks some spinning is going on to support the double chimney.

 

Go and read Peter Townend on fitting the double chimneys and deflectors in the late 50s.
Operationally a much better engine than with a single chimney - and we have to consider main line ops seriously these days, the main line is getting more and more hostile to steam.

 

And coal certainly ain't what it used to be on occasions either! Kylchap for me every time, and if that means deflectors so be it. As for the colour, whichever puts the most bums on seats.

 

I have - and I don't dispute that the double chimney was a major improvement. But it was an improvement on an already perfectly good engine. What I am saying is that 4472 achieved everything that made it famous with a single chimney, so surely it can't be said to be to a bad design or not up to standard. The main line today may be hostile, but the trains are lighter, the speeds lower (especially if trundling to Scarborough and back is the main activity), the distances less and the maintenance far better.

By comparison, the Lord Nelsons in original condition were genuinely sub standard. On Bullied's arrival, testing showed that a Nelson could often be outperformed by a Schools class driven and fired well, so there was clearly something wrong with the Nelsons. No one now would suggest removing the lemaitre blastpipe as the resulting engine would be a liability on the mainline. The A3s by contrast did (in some cases) over 30 years sterling service in far more testing conditions than today with their original drafting, including during the War when some remarkable feats of haulage were achieved.

 

That post has made me think, unrelated to livery I admit, can we expect to see 4472 being properly run about all over the country as befits "the people's engine" (as the NRM themselves have described it in the past I believe). I only ask as I remember when she was purchased someone said that 4472 "wouldn't be stretched", but I don't know whether this was purely as a result of her poor mechanical condition in the last couple of years of her ticket

So rather than just pootling to Scarborough and back without really testing it much, can we expect to see her tackle the S&D, the South Devon Banks, Hatton Bank, Upwey Bank etc? Obviously gauging comes into it but I can't imagine an A3 is that much bigger than an A4? Obviously the Scarborough runs would still be a part of it for the purposes of NRM coffers, but during the off-season as it were (i.e. not June to August time) will she travel?

Also, will she be used solely on the mainline or can we expect to see her visiting preserved lines as well? For example, how great would she look on the SVR teaks, or climbing up to Goathland etc.

 

She wont be climning up to Goathland unless the NRM re-fits the vacuum system, we simply dont have the stock to operate an air braked train, hiring in an air braked set would be too expensive, and require extra training for our guards.

 

Any idea if the retro-fitting of vac brakes is being considered as part of the current overhaul? Would limit things somewhat (with regards to running on preserved lines) if it remains in the current air only set up.

 

I'll find out in between the day job! Can't promise a quick answer, got a lot on this week, please be patient with me.

 

I have to say I would go every time for Apple Green and single chimney - I believe 1963 (?) to the early 1990s, whent he loco carried this livery, was its longest spell in any colour scheme in its life.

However, in terms of 4472 being "the peoples' engine", dual braking is the key thing. Most preserved railways do not have dual or air braked coaches (certainly in sufficient numbers), and, whatever has been said elsewhere, preserved railway use is the best way for large numbers of passengers to travel behind the loco. Apart from regualrs like the Scarboroughs, mainline tours are increasingly the preserve of the "wine and dine" market, with just a couple of standard coaches on the back. Even then, standard class is at least £50 a head and usually nearer £75/£80.

While obviously more people may see a mainline trip running over 200 or 300 miles, the chance to actually ride behind this national icon is only likely to be genuinely offered to many members of the public by visiting heritage railways. A "national tour" was very rightly seen as appropriate for 4771 before her recent (hopefully temporary) retirement and must surely be part of any "access plan" for 4472.

I would just correct Ben on one thing - we do have air braked trained guards on the NYMR - most currently need a refresher but a course was planned for this year's diesel gala until it was decided not to proceed with hiring a set of air braked stock. Ben is certainly right on cost, but the biggest issue for the diesel gala was availability, and hiring a full set is, of course, no option for a line without a mainline connection.

And the point is well made that, although 2 full sets (and plans for more) still exist of teak coaches, they are all vacuum brake only and hence 4472 cannot haul genyuine trains ("be seen in correct context") without possessing vacuum brakes.

 

4472 over the Devon Banks? Ha ha, I dont think so, unless there is a push available......... [-(

Rockinggrate