Liveries!

Is it? Well, you live and learn - and thank you for putting me straight! I'd be the first to admit I'm far from knowledgeable about liveries, never really having been that bothered one way or the other - except that I really don't like S.R. Malachite Green (way too garish for my liking), or B.R. Blue (which looks a muddy sort of colour, even when new, and rapidly fades to a dingy murk). Oh, and some of the modern TOC liveries look, frankly, grotesque.

But it just proves how many of the rivet counters got it wrong - and that includes the writers in the specialist press. I can clearly remember the critical comments made when the news broke that the Crab was to be painted Crimson Lake, and the numbers of comments about "But Crabs were ALWAYS black!" - and I've had plenty of people on the East Lancs and Peak Rail assure me that, though they think she looks very well, "Crabs never carried that livery in LMS days."

 

My apologies - LMS2968 has put me straight on that! But, as I pointed out in my reply to him, I'm no expert on liveries, and was only repeating what a number of people have told me, and going by many comments that I saw in the specialist press when the Crab was turned out in that livery.

 

And I was just about to forward your post to Anthony Coulls to tell him the NRM had painted 13000/42700 wrongly!

 

Hi there.

I have noticed that the restored no. 13000 "crab" at NRM (as mentioned above) , in additon also have yellow outlining painted at the wheel tyres. Whilst many other preserved LMS engines restored to the same livery doesn`t have these linings at the wheels.
Was this something that were applicated just for a periode of time or just for specific engines?

kind regards

Knut

 

Since seeing this post I've had a quick Google to see if I could find a picture of this style of lining. No joy so far.

 

If you want to be really picky there have been one or two modifications, the hole in the cylinder cladding is smaller as it now has one rather than two cylinder relief valves, additional rainstrip over the cab windows and lifting holes in the front framing. Generally the Crabs suffered little alteration which shows they were a good solid design

 

"Perfect authenticity" - about as attainable as the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow!

 

I'm also a railway modeller and we can get a bit too pedantic sometimes. I'm quite happy with the Crab as it is, nice to see some variety. With 60103 it wasn't authentic in single chimney/Apple green configuration as 4472, it wasn't converted to an A3 until 1947 when it was no 103 and didn't get righthand drive until 1954. It represented the appearance of a typical A3 in the 1930s.

 

I fully appreciate the benefits to the NYMR, and I hope lots of people are inspired to take a ride. However, I don't accept that my remarks are totally unfair. Even with only two cameras, to pretend that a green DMU is the same as a blue locomotive is really pushing the limits.

What really narks me (and this has been covered in a different thread) is that an otherwise interesting and visually enjoyable programme was spoiled by a series of crises that were obviously contrived to make the programme more compelling to the viewer. If this was a documentary, which is what I assume it was meant to be, then it should be factual. We live in an age where fake news is eroding our confidence in factual reporting, and we have come to expect that facts must not get in the way of the story. More and more "documentary" programmes are using this technique, turning documentaries into mini-dramas. Probably the most blatant example in recent years was Stephen Fry's "Hidden Kingdoms", where computer graphics were used to manufacture encounters between predator and prey. Michael Portillo's Great Railway Journeys also have some fine examples of contrived incidents and impossible journeys.

None of this is aimed at the NYMR or its volunteers. It's just my little rant against modern documentary makers.

BTW ... My wife and I watched the programme together, and she enjoyed the trains and the scenery, and asked when we were making our next visit to Pickering.

 

That was the only continuity shot that really jarred with me, as I think that was the one one where it was obvious it was supposed to be the same train. The rest fair enough, especially with the limits of 2 cameras. Oh, plus a clip of Pickering waiting to see if Royal Scot would make it, when it was actually sat by the signal box...

As for the false drama, couldn't agree with you more, I'd watch more documentaries if this wasn't forced in all the time, often it's what makes me switch the TV off, not keep watching.

But in general it was great footage of the line and scenery, so that was the highlight.

 

From the producers :-

Ladies and Gentlemen of the NYMR,

Last year you allowed a couple of southerners with cameras into your world for three months. Marcus and I loved our time there and we are really proud of the series that is starting on Friday.

There is, however, one issue that I would like to address before you all see the show – continuity. For people in this group, who know and love every inch of the line and every piece of rolling stock, there are many examples of shots that don’t make sen...se. Locos facing the wrong way, leaving the wrong station, signals in the wrong position, jumps between different parts of the line on the same journey, etc.

This is not done through ignorance, a lack of understanding or laziness, but for the simple fact that two cameras are never enough. Although this might be frustrating for experienced eyes, it’s important to remember that 99.9% of the viewers will not be seeing what you see – they will be loving the chance to see inside a world they don’t know and hopefully planning a trip to see it for themselves in person.

 

Yes, and I'll watch the next episode for this reason. And no doubt I'll annoy my wife (again) by pointing out all the continuity nasties.

 

Another trend is to make a documentary all about the presenter and his/her emotions.

But I guess I'm well off topic by now.

 

What livery was the presenter?

Tom

 

White.
(Am I allowed to say that?)

 

Ironically,whenever I read these livery debates, it always occurs to me that there is actually no such thing as colour in the physical world! It is merely a device that our brains have evolved, which allows us to discriminate between electromagnetic radiation of differing wavelengths.

Dave

 

He's right, you know ..... OK folks - name your favourite perceived scheme of reflected electromagnetic wavelengths, as extrapolated from bioelectrical sensory input - with reference to mobile mechanical constructs (incorporating reciprocal to rotary motion, translating into controlled forwards or backwards movement, constrained in three of four mutually perpendicular axes by suitable suspension and a specialised selective guidance system) composed of sub-assemblies of worked electrically conductive crystalline elements and compounds, arranged to contain combusting fossilised wood at one end, heated pressurised water in the middle and water vapour plus the particulate waste from combustion at t'other end ..... plus diesels and electics of course!*.

Put that way, I'd bet on the largest percentage of replies you'd get on here still translating into "some shade or other of green".

*Shall we stick to the sense of sight? If we 'do' the other four, we'll be here till the cows come home and (due to inevitable logical progression) eventually be stuck with the image of some loony eating coal!

 

There is no spoon?

 

Am I right in thinking we can see more shades of green than any other colour? No wonder there is so much bl**dy confusion! I bet dogs don't pontfrothicate about which colour car is best to chase!

 

Back to the livery discussion:

In the early years of main line railways the fashion was make every component a work of art in its own right. So items like a carriage door, a reversing lever or a splasher were each a thing of beauty. The down-side was that very often the ensemble had too much detail and was too fussy when viewed as a whole.

In later Victorian and Edwardian times, each item of rolling stock was styled in a more holistic manner, with some particularly elegant 4-4-0s whose lines were complemented by elaborate but not over-fussy lining. This is my favourite era for loco liveries. NER 1621 is just one example.

On to the grouping era, and loco liveries are dumbed down, but there is a move towards more integrated train styling, where the whole train (rather than individual vehicles) would be given a sleek, holistic look. The LMS Coronation Scots were probably the pinnacle of this in the steam era, and the original HST livery was probably as good as it gets in the modern era.

Today it seems that railway vehicles are just a blank canvas for fantasy designs and marketing messages. Some of these work quite well. Others are an aesthetic disaster, not much better than graffiti.