Sentinel works no 6807 Gervase

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

The reason that the boiler looks a bit strange is that the outer shell from floor level up has been cut away with oxy-acetlene torch. The outer shell mounting feet angles attached to the lower part of the shell can still be seen. The inner firebox (with the top flange cut away) which can be seen is the 'spiral-tube' type. First introduced in 1923, it is thought to have been prone to tube leakage problems, and starting with steam (road) waggon boilers from April 1928 there was a gradual reversion to former practice with the 'square' type firebox with slightly inclined cross water tubes..

Please note:- (a) the company's name is 'SentinEl', (not 'SentinAl'), and (b) the word 'waggon' in Sentinel terminology always has two 'g's'.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Funny you should raise the two 'g' point, I think Tanfield is the only railway in the country to have a Carriage and Waggon Department (with two 'g's). We're just being old fashioned given the derivation of the line from a waggonway which definitely had two 'g's but in the North East it was always kept that way.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Boiler fittings should not really a problem as there are still several companies that supply new ones at reasonable prices. As for the engines, have you tried talking to some of the road steam people, the older Sentinel wagons were based on similar engine units and there may just be someone out there....... Anyone know if there is a steam lorry organisation? I will ask around at some of my local rallies this year.

Would be good to see such an historically important loco run again! Would be very welcome at Foxfield if you do manage it.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Thanks. I've never had half an engine get a booking before!!!! I regret that my colleague has been unable to find the pictures concerned, but when I am next down for our May 3-5 gala I will take a ballast-based detour, and go and get some pictures. One of our fitters has, I understand, been using his lunch hours to search containers, and squirrel away more bits that may belong to the engine. The engine and boiler would be the killers to this project, as either would cost more than we could probably raise for a project of this nature. I'll go and see what we're lacking, then I can update this!!!!!

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

A new boiler for a Sentinel isn't going to be that expensive, as boilers go. Middleton has previously offered you an old firebox that should be capable of repair. The engine unit is a different matter, though. I find it hard to believe that this has disappeared from the face of the earth, though.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Hi Steve. Two small points. The Middleton didn't offer US an old firebox. They offered a firebox "to a good home". We considered asking them for it, but figured that our lack of an engine unit meant that if another engine could make better use of the firebox, they should have it. If they've still got it, we'd be only too delighted to talk to them.

As for the engine unit, I am hampered by how much I can say without repeating internal rumour. All I can say on an external forum is that it appears to have been "Disposed of", and has not passed into the hands of any other group. The simple fact is that we do not have it, and we are not even sure what it looked like, or the peramaters for it.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

AFAIK we offered a firebox to those wanting to restore Gervaise. In fact I nearly brought it down to Rolvenden in Dec 2006 when I took a lorry down to pick up some bits from the KESR but the person dealing with it at our end was too useless to make the arrangements in time. Anyhow, there's a choice of two available. Come and take your pick. Both are used, in need of re-tubing and other work but basically sound where repair could be a problem. One we bought brand new from BR in 1961 for the princely sum of £50. One thing I don't know is whether the size is right for Gervaise. I've assumed that those who did the original negotiating covered that minor detail!!

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

For those interested in doing some thing with this Loco (or any other Sentinel Loco for that matter), details of the Sentinel Drivers Club can be found at:-

http://www.sentinel-waggons.co.uk

Through the SDC there are parts and patterns for castings, not only for road vehicles, but some parts are also applicable to Locos as well.

The SDC has also been scanning microfiches of some 21,000 or more original Sentinel drawings and copies of these are/will be available. It might pay those interested to join, if not already a member.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Right, I've FINALLY had a chance to go and get the pics I promised. Bear in mind, especially those of you who doubted, that the engine really is in as bad a condition as it looks. I dare say Mr Riley could have it running by Thursday week, but for us, we suspect, it is going to be a very long, very slow process....

http://jonedwards.photobook.org.uk/c1504130.html

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Fireline

In the past, a number of Sentinel Waggons have beed restored, and even a few 'built' utilising Sentinel Loco Parts, most importantly using an engine sourced from a loco.

My understanding is, and bear in mind that it is a loose one based on a conversation I had with a gent who was building a waggon at the time (we sold him some parts), is that the early type loco engine is very similar to the engine fitted to the Sentinel 'Super' Steam Waggons, the main difference being in the cams (loco has a start and run in both directions, waggon only has a single reverse cam), and importantly the waggon should have a 'diff crank', a very clever piece of engineering. Drive for the wheels being taken from both ends. The loco crank being 'solid' as it were. I also believe that varous manifolds etc are aligned differently due to a waggon engine being horizontal. All that said that particular waggon runs, and all problems solved, and I've been for a ride in it. He managed to source a diff crank from australia to go in the loco engine.

I suspect your engine was 'procured' for one of these waggon projects. Who know which, there are a number of them. PM me if we can enlighten each other.

Another bit of news that you may know is that new outer boilers are availible from a number of sources, obviously traction engine boilermakers, fireboxes are also availible, some to a new design, but importantly a certain boilermaker in Chesterfield can press fireboxes to the square pattern as supplied by sentinels, the tooling is for waggon fireboxes, but I see no reason why loco fireboxes couldnt be made also.

The Sentinel Drivers club will be able to help as pattern have been made for waggon restorations, I suspect quite a few will be usefull to you.

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Thanks for your help. We know about procuring outer boilers, and we had heard that someone in Chesterfield could do the inner boxes. As far as the engine is concerned, I still really can't discuss that, other than to state that, in addition to ours not having gone to another project, it was also not procured for any waggon project. I regret to say that it is no more.

Our engineer is still busy fitting our P class back together, but I hope to kidnap him soon, and have a look at how realistic we are really being. I'll keep you posted!

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

A quick update. I thought, much like a lot of other people, that there wasn't much hope, especially after I reviewed the pictures I took.....


However, I received a message today. Someone described to me as an "ENTHUSIASTIC BENEFACTOR" has come forward, and has undertaken to complete a FULL restoration to working order!!!! Gervaise will be restored at a private site, away from the KESR, to return to be used on the line on which she was the first steam engine in preservation. I cannot give any more details at present, but given the track record of the individual concerned, this restoration WILL HAPPEN!!!! I will post more information as soon as it becomes available, and always supposing that I can get myself down off the ceiling to type!!!!

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Lead boots in stock!

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

Don't bother with the boots, I've tied some railchairs round his neck - less of a bio-hazard! [-o<

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

This is a perfect opportunity for the "before" and "after" pics. I have been sent two pics, by the owner of Gervase.

This is the before....:

http://jonedwards.photobook.org.uk/p50711714.html

And the after pic shows how she ended her days in industrial service....:

http://jonedwards.photobook.org.uk/p50711710.html

I leave it open to all of you as to whether it was an improvement......

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

thats quite an evolution it's had over the years. who originally built it? and what year?

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

im no expert but id say it origionally was a hudswell or hunslet

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that she was a Manning Wardle. By way of comparison:

http://www.australiansteam.com/nswind/mw1781a.jpg

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Re: Kent and East Sussex 'GERVAISE'.

She is a Manning Wardle, of the H Class, and was works no. 1472, built in 1900. She was delivered new to J S Peters Lime Works at Merstham. It was while in their ownership that she was rebuilt by Sentinel in 1928. She is Sentinel works no. 6807, but was also give the Sentinel conversion no. S6710.

I have received this information, and a great deal more, from the engine's benefactor. I think I am also ok to say that it is intended that Gervase leave the KESR in June for restoration at a private site. I will try to keep this post updated with progress as and when I receive it.

I think it is wonderful that an engine that was not designed by Bulleid/Churchward/Gresley is receiving such attention. I still think there is a danger of industrial heritage, and the early days of a number of preservation movements, being swept away. Preserved railways have had to become commercial entities in order to survive, but it is sad to see that in some cases the preservation heritage falls by the wayside. Anyway, I look forward to the day when she once again bustles around Tenterden yard.