If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

RAIB Investigation: South Devon Railway

Rasprava u 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' pokrenuta od 35B, 10. Srpanj 2017..

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Pridružen(a):
    6. Siječanj 2018.
    Poruka:
    3,498
    Lajkova:
    6,845
    Grad:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If you get a regional train in Romania there is a good chance you’ll get an old skool toilet.

    Unlike elections where the slogan is ‘vote early, vote often’ the slogan for CFR toilets ought to be ‘Go early and don’t go often’
     
  2. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Pridružen(a):
    8. Prosinac 2014.
    Poruka:
    19,263
    Lajkova:
    12,514
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Lets leave the toilet humour to one side, before we get flushed off course, now, i have several questions

    how come the coach was allowed to remain in service with a known defect that potentially should have seen it red carded until the floor had been replaced,

    if the door was locked out of use did anyone on board ie Guard check security of said door, whilst performing their duties , or did no one get told The WC in coach x has a serious defect and has to be kept securely locked out of use,

    a simple action like the guard checking the door was in fact locked at the beginning of each trip should have ensured the public's safety .
    Normally a door would be secured using a BR1 key, and BR Carriage key, this should have been done by a fitter as well as screwing a door shut, if the frame was damaged, or the locks rendered useless, then that is reason to either carry out a repair to ensure it can be locked , or to red card it, until a repair can be made.
     
  3. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Pridružen(a):
    24. Srpanj 2008.
    Poruka:
    7,762
    Lajkova:
    5,890
    I suggest reading the report as that answers most of your questions....
     
    burnettsj, Greenway i 35B se sviđa ovo.
  4. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

    Pridružen(a):
    2. Rujan 2007.
    Poruka:
    1,658
    Lajkova:
    820
    Commercial pressures were allowed to overrule experienced competent Carriage fitters.

    Maybe a lesson for all fitters when being pressured to let something not right run?

    “Oh, if you are overruling me please can you put it in writing so that I can ask ORR for advice”.
     
  5. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Pridružen(a):
    17. Kolovoz 2009.
    Poruka:
    1,710
    Lajkova:
    1,732
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Interesi:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Toilet doors do not have BR 1 locks as far as I know.
     
    Wenlock se sviđa ovo.
  6. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Pridružen(a):
    17. Kolovoz 2009.
    Poruka:
    1,710
    Lajkova:
    1,732
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Interesi:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Over the years I have had to make a stand a couple of times, I have even had them bring in a consultant who totally agreed with me.
     
    Sawdust, jtx, Bluenosejohn i 1 drugoj osobi se sviđa ovo.
  7. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Pridružen(a):
    22. Veljača 2018.
    Poruka:
    140
    Lajkova:
    134
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Good for you. Having had similar experiences in my normal job, I can appreciate that doing so can take some guts - but what spurred me on was the thought of how I'd feel if I let a dangerous situation go, and somebody ended up getting seriously hurt as a consequence.
     
    Bluenosejohn se sviđa ovo.
  8. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Pridružen(a):
    21. Srpanj 2007.
    Poruka:
    5,844
    Lajkova:
    7,688
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes - and no - if you take the door handle off, then a carriage key will fit where the shaft between the inside and outside handles was (exactly the same as a traditional house door!)

    It appears this whole episode could have been avoided by removing the door handle and locking the toilet off by ensuring it was closed with a carriage key. Removing the front plate of the 'Engaged ' sign and ensuring this was in in a locked position too would have been 'belt & braces' I feel these measures would have been 'managing the risk' adequately.

    It is not surprising perhaps that 'the engineers must always be allowed to fail things' takes precedence here and indeed it is totally correct - an engineer must be listened to if they state something isn't safe to run and they must make that judgement regardless of whether they know that there is nothing else. However, engineers could also do to take more note (and be reminded in a timely manner by operators) of what level of serviceable stock is needed to meet operational requirements, and aim to ensure that enough serviceable stock is available. This involves planning and being clear what resources the engineers need to deliver. How often do maintenance, operations and commercial exist in 'silos', complaining about how each isn't getting what they need from the other but never perhaps making clear what this is until its lacking can be an excuse and it is too late to do anything about it?!

    Steven
     
    TommyD, 35B, jnc i 1 drugoj osobi se sviđa ovo.
  9. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Pridružen(a):
    22. Veljača 2018.
    Poruka:
    140
    Lajkova:
    134
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But another point was raised in the RAIB report, concerning the lack of floor. This is an extract from Page 20 of the RAIB Report 02 (2018):

    "The removal of the toilet floor and the decay at the base of the partitions resulted in a loss of integrity of the structure of the toilet cubicle, because the floor was no longer tying the partition walls together. This meant the structure was no longer rigid, and the movement of the train may have resulted in the door frame and the door moving relative to each other. This movement caused the screws securing the door to become loose, fracture or fall out."
    (my emphasis)

    If that is the case (and I've no reason to doubt the RAIB on that point), then whatever system used to secure the door could have failed.
     
    flying scotsman123 se sviđa ovo.
  10. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Pridružen(a):
    16. Ožujak 2008.
    Poruka:
    4,019
    Lajkova:
    3,804
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The Green Howards and paulhitch like this.
  11. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Pridružen(a):
    18. Lipanj 2011.
    Poruka:
    28,731
    Lajkova:
    28,658
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  12. Midlandsouthern

    Midlandsouthern New Member

    Pridružen(a):
    25. Ožujak 2018.
    Poruka:
    152
    Lajkova:
    76
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Lichfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Heavy fine for a very lucky near miss. Should serve as a warning in keeping systems upto date and procedures clear, and stock thats needs work out of service as this coach sounds like it should have been. But least taking the fault and a big money hit is better than losing the ability to operate
     
  13. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Pridružen(a):
    18. Svibanj 2011.
    Poruka:
    6,081
    Lajkova:
    2,217
    yes, learn from it, move on.
     
    Kinghambranch se sviđa ovo.
  14. Plus costs...
     
  15. JayDee

    JayDee Member

    Pridružen(a):
    15. Prosinac 2017.
    Poruka:
    354
    Lajkova:
    272
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Swadlincote
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I remember being quite shocked when I read about this the first time around, and quite as to what possessed someone to put a coach into service with bits of floor missing I really don't know.
     
  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Pridružen(a):
    8. Prosinac 2014.
    Poruka:
    19,263
    Lajkova:
    12,514
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    commercial pressure, the " we need that coach do what you can to ensure it can be used" request, I'm a former C&W Fitter on another railway and Commercial will always need that extra seat, that extra coach, the question though is do you say no, or try to make that coach fit for traffic, make the wrong decision and something goes wrong, as in this case, and now its cost the railway far more than the loss of that coach,
     
  17. JayDee

    JayDee Member

    Pridružen(a):
    15. Prosinac 2017.
    Poruka:
    354
    Lajkova:
    272
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Swadlincote
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    So for the sake of... what? 48 seats and an optimistic max of £1500 or so in takings per possible trip the railway's now lost, what? 20 times or more of that?

    Yeeeouch.
     
    johnofwessex se sviđa ovo.
  18. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

    Pridružen(a):
    8. Prosinac 2012.
    Poruka:
    1,706
    Lajkova:
    3,987
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Out there somewhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    £13,035 !
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Pridružen(a):
    8. Ožujak 2008.
    Poruka:
    27,790
    Lajkova:
    64,455
    Grad:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Presumably not even that calculation - since presumably, the same visitors would have turned up regardless. So the difference between running the coach or not running it is not about an extra £1500 in revenue or not, but to what degree everyone gets a seat or not. Whether that coach ran or not on that particular day will have had essentially zero revenue impact. Long term, overcrowding is probably not great in terms of reviews people will leave on social media sites and the impression they give their friends, but short term, over crowding would have to be preferable to what happened.

    Tom
     
    Hampshire Unit se sviđa ovo.
  20. JayDee

    JayDee Member

    Pridružen(a):
    15. Prosinac 2017.
    Poruka:
    354
    Lajkova:
    272
    Spol:
    Muškarac
    Grad:
    Swadlincote
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Do we even know what rough train loadings would've been about that time? They run five coach sets down there, don't they? Would a single less coach have made such a huge impact?
     

Podijelite ovu stranicu