If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,065
    Likes Received:
    20,774
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not every locomotive out there at the time went through the rigours of the Rugby testing plant. That was one way to try and deal with the factors that, in practice, affect the 'on the road' performance of locomotives. The recent Don Benn book on the End of Southern Steam touches on some of the performances in the context of the way that the locos were being worked and their condition. But that was only possible through close links with particular loco crews who could provide the operational insights through a direct commentary. If you are just sitting in the train without any detailed engagement with the crew then you can miss so much. (As an aside, I think that there may be an interesting commentary on recent loco handling coming up soon in a Don Benn/Heritage Railway piece).
     
  2. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,751
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well I spent a couple of hours in the TNA the other day poring over GWR annual reports to get a better understanding of the "Renewals" concept recently discussed on here! Unfortunately, there are a few other books in the queue ahead of it.

    Cox probably sums up pragmatic loco design in his preamble to his paper on the BR Standards:
    "While locomotive designers seek the trinity of thermal, operating and maintenance efficiency, they have all consciously or unconsciously, to decide which features they will specially favour, since excellence in any two usually gives rise to some falling short of the ideal in the remaining one. After a survey of practice at home and abroad, it was concluded that for as long as the steam locomotive has a place to fill, its best opportunity for progress lies in the direction of higher availability and lower maintenance costs rather than in seeking markedly higher thermal efficiency."
     
    jnc, johnofwessex, Spamcan81 and 4 others like this.
  3. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I suspect you would find the former, given that I understand (purely from reading model railway layout design books) that both Rolvenden and particularly Kinnerley were known for their lines of rusting, unservicable locos and stock. It is very clear in FfR history: before Stephens arrived the railway would buy new boilers, but during his time the most that would be done was a retube. As soon as he died and the railway was managed by local men once more, boilers were ordered again (and Merddin was sent away to Fishponds for Avonside to overhaul).

    Anyway this is all getting very much offtopic, notwithstanding that a number of significant FfR people in the first 25 years of the New Management were LNER men and probably were acquainted with ET!
     
    S.A.C. Martin and Monkey Magic like this.
  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The linear scrapyard before railway preservation came along in fact.:)

    PH
     
    Bluenosejohn and Forestpines like this.
  5. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Maybe there is a Col Stephens thread to be started. My interpretation of the tradition col Stephens narrative is that it was managed decline, essentially struggling lines that would have closed earlier.

    Given the long lines of scrap at rolvenden, does this mean a linear scrap yard today at the kesr is authentic? ;)

    Perhaps that is more down to Nock’s interests and what he was privy to. My reading of those footplate reports is there is a lot of discussion about firing, about cut offs, regulator usage etc, signals all things he could see with his own eyes. I suspect he would not (beyond visual and noise clues) have too much idea about the recent servicing history of a loco. He may not for example have registered the impact of post-war labour shortages in a given shed, quality of coal etc.

    As a side note, I rarely recall ever seeing footplate reports from a slow goods, nearly always an express or crack freight.

    But this is an issue with all writing, there are certain epistemological decisions that writers make, either consciously or unconsciously ie agency vs structure. Nock would be more agency, you’d be more structure.
     
    jnc, S.A.C. Martin and Forestpines like this.
  6. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,065
    Likes Received:
    20,774
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And the moment that statement is made it becomes blindingly obvious! A loco that is difficult to maintain or that needs regular attention is a pain. Hence the work of Riddles post WW2 with the Standards. And then there is the work of Jarvis to remodel the Bulleid Pacifics. Q.E.D.
     
  7. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And this is perhaps where the wider context comes in, labour shortages and increased demands on locos during and after the war meant that loco availability was the critical area of concern, whereas, in the depression era and beforehand when labour was cheap, thermal efficiency was more important (hence all the various experiments with boilers, feed water heaters etc etc).

    I think bill Harvey’s memoirs of Neasden shed during the war and immediate aftermath give a striking portrayal of the issues of labour and loco availability - and in this case the critical issue is locos to work coal trains into London in winter so a far wider issue than how much coal a given loco is using. He just needs to have enough locos available to work the trains, and often he doesn’t because he doesn’t have the staff and the locos are knackered.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  8. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,563
    Likes Received:
    3,316
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stanthorpe, QLD, Australia
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And so as the cost of labour increased, the general dynamic of the 'trinity' shifted accordingly. Previously, maintenance would have come third.

    I'm loving that we are getting some proper discussion as to the application of historical context here too. There is still plenty of room for discussion of original thought or new angles. Not everything should be set in stone because someone published an opinion 30, 40, 50 years ago.
     
    jnc, MellishR, Monkey Magic and 2 others like this.
  9. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There has been no crime, heinous or otherwise. Historical research is good - that Cox report was most useful, to both sides, as you might discover if you read the thread in detail, and these further anecdotes Mr Martin has would be just as interesting if they could actually be published. But we mortals have to make do with the many published works, both old and new, that are already out there for our stance and debating points. Unfortunately it is impossible to debate with someone whose first gambit is to claim that all those sources are either lies or bias or both, and that there was a massive conspiracy to silence the truth. It is impossible to strike the balance spoken of above, if one side of the debate refuses to acknowledge the information used by the other.

    Consider this latest spat - an assertion was made and it was questioned by two people. the response to their questions was to state their sources were rubbish, without even asking what those sources were. That is not debate.

    That said, a detailed reading of the thread will show that a general consensus was sort of reached among the rest of the posters, but sadly that has never been enough for Mr Martin.

    It doesn't help that there are a number of individual questons to answer. Some are interlinked whilst others aren't. For instance, the attitude of Thompson to Gresley is pretty well irrelevent to the detailed designs of the locos and how they were found to perform, whether Pacifics or pretty much any other type of loco designed by Thompson.

    And to mention some of the latest posts, the effects of costs and other restraints on design are no excuse for poor performance, but they are a reason for it which should be taken into account when assessing the designer. On the other hand they become irrelevant if the poor performance itself is not recognised.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Can you give a bit more of a concrete example / definition about that difference between agency and structure?

    Tom
     
  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,065
    Likes Received:
    20,774
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So, bringing the whole discussion up to date and, hopefully without losing the general direction of the thread, factors in the modification of loco designs nowadays give a clear indication of changed priorities. For main line operation, these include:
    • the range of the locomotive between stops to refuel. Primarily this is to do with water - low capacity tenders are a problem - connected with.....
    • water usage. We know that Tornado is quite frugal with water when driven well. Ditto for some other locos.
    • boiler maintenance, to include water treatment - important because of the heating/cooling cycles.
    • visibility - high intensity running lights have replaced earlier forms of electric lighting.
    • routine maintenance and ease of access to pivotal areas.
    • operating convenience - locomotives with air brake systems 'fit' better on the national network. Air brake trains are easier to rescue.
    and so on.

    With loco design, you cannot ignore the context, as has been said above and all loco designers were 'of their time'. Any retrospective analysis has to take that into account. Likewise, any adaptations in the 21st Century have to do the same.
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

    The same still applies today. I've been looking at costs in heritage running: suffice to say the cost of locomotive overhauls is many multiples of running costs. Put bluntly, finding a way to stretch each loco out to run 10% further between overhauls would have a far, far bigger impact on the bottom line than finding a way to make it burn 10% less coal.

    Tom
     
    oldmrheath, jnc, Monkey Magic and 6 others like this.
  13. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    14,118
    Likes Received:
    7,644
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Naughty step
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Mr. Martin has had access to material that "cannot be published", it seems.

    My simple question - for I am but a simple soul - is why?
     
    jnc and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  14. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,563
    Likes Received:
    3,316
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stanthorpe, QLD, Australia
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    He did mention it a while back (IIRC, and I think in this thread), but I too hope he can explain it fully again.
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  15. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Apologies for jumping in, but this division has been a debating point in historiography since the start of the discipline. The "agency" side of the argument is sometimes derided as the "great man theory" and is the view that historical events are caused by the actions of specific actors: Churchill's leadership winning the war, or Trevithick inventing the steam loco. The "structure" side tends to predominate in social or economic history and tends to posit that events are caused by underlying structural change or external causes: Germany losing the war due to insufficient resources and manpower, or to the sociological mindset of the German officer class; or the steam locomotive being the next step in a series of developments which slowly increased the power/weight ratio of heat engines. The agency theory tends usually to be seen as more traditionalist and conservative partly because it privileges leadership as the primary agent of change.
     
  16. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Excerpt from a post 1821 above :


    Me - A pity all those people you have spoken to didn't pipe up some time earlier in the last 60 years or so - or were they afraid of being excommunicated...

    S. A. C. Martin - Yes, I’m afraid some of them were afraid of such consequences, such is the depth of feeling on this debate.

    It has been of immense frustration that so little of that I have collated I am allowed to publish.
     
  17. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Most of the Heritage locos could be kept running for at least that much longer if there wasn't the ten year boiler lift and strip requirement. That's where the real cost is. Having a second boiler ready to go would help timewise, though the cost might be almost the same.
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But (as I pointed out earlier) much of that I have collated IS in the public domain, and all mere mortals (for I am one!) could, if they were bothered, go and find such sources if they took the time. I have always listed my sources and have provided a full and up to date bibliography where requested, so it's not as if I am debating with a level of "here's something I believe, no you can't see everything".

    That accusation is somewhat scurrilous. I have never claimed that every single source out there rubbishing Thompson are either lies, or bias or both: but in my opinion there are a lot of the first, a definite amount of the second, and many of the third. I have identified several writers for which I feel that to be the case, and I have always stated that others may feel differently.

    I can confirm there are a number of archive pieces that were made available to me for information, that come in a few categories:

    1) personal family archive material - not for publication. That is on the request of several individuals. I am respecting their wishes. I do not, as a general rule, speak on these, other than one specific story which relates to Thompson's First World War record (it explains why he was awarded the MBE and was mentioned in dispatches twice).

    2) material which I have permission to publish, but have to anonymize (there is quite a substantial body of work to this, which I have made reference to before). I have over several years agonised over this, and reluctantly decided in the interests of a fair and balanced debate, to not publish.

    Why?

    I do not like using material without sources. May as well become a tabloid newspaper if that is the case. I am allowed, I hope, to have regret that some material will not see the light of day as a result. I have on several occasions tried to persuade the sources otherwise - but to no avail.

    3) Copyrighted material

    In the case of 3), I will use the Havard referencing guide and where applicable and I am able, will directly quote or show pieces that I have obtained full permissions, as per any other writer.

    There are some sources which cost a significant amount to publish and whilst I can make reference to them, I cannot put in the book without incurring further costs.

    In that case, I hope the above clarification can be of use to you.

    Let me extend an olive branch - I am happy to speak to you, whether by email or other medium, regarding this, in further detail, provided all correspondence on the issue of publicising sources remains between us.

    What consensus is that? Who here decides that there HAS to be a consensus? We are not allowed a difference of opinion? Sounds rather authoritarian to me. I don't believe there will ever be a consensus in the same way that I don't believe, with some of the generations writing on steam railways, that certain historical figures will get much of a fair hearing, so to speak, whilst those generations are alive.

    I agree.

    Performance and their day to day work, together with their visits to works, and similar, will all be taken into account (and given I have studied a vast number of LNER Pacific engine cards over the past eight years I feel confident I am able to give a fairly reasonable view on this regarding the Pacifics).

    EDIT: a few spelling errors. Corrected - no other changes.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
    Copper-capped likes this.
  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I hope my above response to Mr Lplus will answer that for you.
     
  20. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    474
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I would agree to that, however, given the ease to burn 10% less coal by a cheap modification of the blast pipe, over a 10-year period between overhauls it would give a pleasant contribution to the overhaul costs.
    If given as a cash donation the donor would be treated with all due respect!
    Kind regards
    Jos
     
    jnc, MellishR and Bluenosejohn like this.

Share This Page