100% Authenticity

Paul - are you well? It looks to me like you may have an infection of "big chufferitis" there. You run the risk of imagining that you've seen a tender engine on the IoW if this gets out of hand. Get well soon.

Peter

 

The difference is that a Class 8 hauling 5 or 6 vehicles tender first at 25 m.p.h on a modestly graded branch line in the U.K. is not what the locomotive was intended to do. In utter contrast J611 was built to haul 20 very heavy cars up serpentine, steeply graded routes to places such as Blue Ridge VA. This is what it still does and they are fully laden vehicles too. After all this thread is supposed to be about "authenticity".

46447 is having a flying visit to the I.O.W. to enable the former Ivatt Trustees to see their generous donation in service simultaneously. She goes back to Cranmore next week.

PH

 

But surely an Ivatt 2mt with a tender is rather big chufferitus for the Isle of Wight?

 

And what about the generous owners and operators of class 8 locos on other lines?

I’m getting a whiff of something in the air, oh yes, hypocrisy.

On the subject of authenticity and the n&w, what about segregated waiting rooms to recreate the South in the 1950s? Authentic racism and a poster featuring a j as well. https://www.flickr.com/photos/retroweb/6559390763

Is 20 coaches authentic? This accident report has a consist of 7 https://therailroadersdaughter.com/2013/08/17/the-1946-wreck-of-nws-pride-joy-the-powhatan-arrow/

Authenticity requires people to forget as much as remember.

 

A gnat straining exercise on your part I think. Both the tank and tender variants of the 2MT are the same machine in essence as you know well. You also know why she was brought back to the IOW for a few days as you quote my posting which gives the reason.

PH

 

Having put you on "ignore" my curiosity led me to see what you had to say. It's back on ignore for you.

PH

 

I think many countries can offer something. I think we are lucky to have so much, and more than perhaps anyone else that was all I was saying.

 

'Both the tank and tender variants are the same machine in essence' well no they're not are they? One has a tender and the other dosn't! So how is that the same?

 

They share boiler, cylinders, motion, driving wheels and leading truck. The tender version has greater water and coal capacity. They are basically the same core design.

PH

 

But carrying all that extra coal and water round burns unnecessary coal and water...

 

Yes because you are a hypocritical cry baby who is happy to dish it out calling everyone all sorts of patronising names, but who can't take it when it comes back at him.

It is a very simple point - what about the generous supporters of class 8 locomotives - don't they have the right to see their locos run?

Were consists on the N&W regularly 20 cars? (I have absolutely no idea so you can enlighten me)

I think the UK also is lucky in that it also has a usable past. For example, in the UK trying to recreate a scene from the late 1930s is ok, in say Germany, Austria, Spain or Italy, it would be a lot more problematic because of the politics of that era. The UK can happily recreate 'war on the line' scenes, while you can maybe do this for WW1 in Europe, it would be a very difficult to do for WW2 in part because the railways were so central to the carrying out of genocide.

(As a sidenote, there is a very good model railway in Hamburg which includes a series of models modelling the same place through the C20, when it comes to the 1930s it does model the violence of the period (the synagogue has been destroyed) but at the same time, because of the laws on Nazi symbols, they can model where the flags and banners would be but the centre of the flag where the Swastika would be is left blank).

I get the impression that visual re-creators can just about get away with not confronting issues such as segregation in the US, but museums do have to confront these issues. As an alternative, there is a recreation of an emigrant car in Canada (there are only two still surviving) which is set up to show the harshness of the conditions that emigrants travelled in in order to make a new life.

 

Trains like the Pocahontas consisted of about 10 coaches. The train speeds were typically run at 40mph or so, so still far in excess of what we put our own mainline locomotives through. There's also nowhere to really run 611 in the US aside from on the main network though.

 

Big Chufferitus then....

 

Paul, I'm well aware of what they share, however I don't think your quite correct as regards cylinders, certainly the batch built by Swindon had an extra 1/2 inch diameter in cylinder size.

 

That's utter gnat straining.

PH

 

No

 

Paul - there is no historical precedent or authenticity for the presence of Ivatts, either tender or tank engine type, on the Isle of Wight, and for the typical train weights and relatively modest gradients, they are clearly very overpowered. The vast majority of us nonetheless have no difficulty with their use on the Island despite those issues. The reason you are being called out is the disconnect in your never-ending criticism of other lines running non-authentic locos, or locos more powerful than needed for the train weights, yet a complete and wilful blindness when exactly the same things happen at Havenstreet! It is the hypocrisy of your position that rankles.

Why not just accept, as most of us do, that in the context of 21st century Isle of Wight, the Ivatts are attractive, and - importantly - available, locomotives for the service; and that is no different from what is happening with the use of other locos on other lines?

Tom

 

Tom _ I fear you don't quite get it. I have no problem e.g. with the Battlefield Line hiring in a 45xx whatsoever. Just the job for their needs in a way that something like a 8F would not be. Similarly, I don't quarrel with the Bluebell using the "Dukedog". Express motive power on branch lines I do quarrel with.

Incidentally the leading dimensions of an 02 are very similar to those of a 2MT, The later machine has 25% greater working pressure. They are machines designed for similar work, sixty or so years apart.

Paul

 

Personally I would love to see a 9f working on IOSR, go the whole hog, what the hell

 

That the loco doesn’t fit in the headshunt at Wootton would appear to support the idea that it is too big for the line.

I find it ironic, a 2-8-0 s160 is fine but an 2-8-0 8f isn’t ok.

Like Humpty Dumpty, words seem to mean what you choose them to mean rather than what they actually mean because you are afraid and unable to admit to being wrong about anything.

I’m thinking the P2 when built, a king and a Duchess or princess. You’d almost have a decent hand in cards, king, queen, knave.