Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

now you do !

 

uphill all the way to Tring - 1 in 300-330 . it would be a fine judgement as to the best ever British 4-4-0 . a choice between the KG V and the Schools . nothing else compares . they got 20 years + out of them , and they were still running 80mph on the outer suburban trains in their dotage .

 

and a little tale of the old North Western

Old Fred T—, of Crewe, was one of the surly brand of drivers and always rather aggressive in his outlook. One morning his engine, a "George the Fifth," was standing at the head of a train on No. 15 platform, Euston, and Fred was leaning over the side of the cab, surveying the scene on the platform with a cynical eye. A few minutes before starting time a rather pompous Midland official walked up Platform 15 and counted the coaches as he went along. Thirteen coaches, two "diners," —loading equal to "23½." A bit staggered by this he walked up to Fred and said, "Good morning, driver, where's your pilot engine?" Fred looked him up and' down, removed the dreadful old pipe from under his straggling moustache and remarked, "In the shed, where she ought to be. Who do you think we are, the b— Midland?" "No, but I am," replied the official, and walked off huffilv.

 

A version of this story is recounted in lms 150 I think.

 

I think C Hamilton Ellis repeats it in LMS - A Railway in Retrospect, but still worth telling. An insight into way Midland engines outlasted LNWR ones, perhaps?

 

I rather suspect the custodians of the LNER D49 'Morayshire' might have something to say about either the LNWR or Southern having Britain's best 4-4-0! I think it's also notable that the LSWR T9 lasted so long in service, and could produce excellent performances when required. Personally, I have my doubts about the usefulness of a 6'8" Atlantic on a steeply-graded preserved line, and suspect she'd have a much better chance of getting a heavy train over the summit at Imberhorne if allowed to run rather faster than 25mph north of Horsted Keynes... IMO the most obvious thing to do with her (and the Bulleids, for that matter) in the medium-term would be to run a daily service to London, and longer-term to Brighton via Ardingly...

 

If you wanted to see it at a higher speed could it visit the GCR and go on the TPO??

 

Well you could offer a service to Brighton via Ardingly and also a service via Lewes. ; ) I think that this will happen around the time that the MHR re-introduces services to Southampton from Waterloo.

 

.... and I'm still not convinced that it would be posssible or sensible to plan a railtour assuming this level of performance as the norm.

 

Given that the Bluebell are talking about running into Haywards Heath... but there's no bay platform there, no room for one, and no slow line most of the way from Copyhold Junction, so pathing is going to be impossible at less than 75mph... and nowhere to turn or even run round a loco... the only sensible solution that I can see, which could be really worth it commercially, would be going to Brighton.

 

Most Bluebell services stop at Kingscote, and those that don’t are limited to 5mph through the platforms. So faster speed north of HK (presumably to “rush the bank”) is irrelevant: all trains need to be able to start a train from rest up a 1:75 gradient. No reason to suppose that Beachy Head will have any difficulty doing do.

As for speculation about running to Brighton or London - cloud cuckoo land doesn’t begin to cover it, I’m afraid.

Tom

 

Cloud cuckoo land for it happening with Beachy Head or on a regular basis, perhaps; but occasional railtours in and out are already happening. Extension to Ardingly is clearly a remote prospect, but if and when it happens occasional trips through to Brighton will be equally feasible. For Lewes, extension from Uckfield is more likely less unlikely than extension from Sheffield Park.

 

The Bluebell will never be able to run to HH and terminate there, that's for sure. It's Ardingly or Brighton.

7 or 8 Mk1s, heavily loaded, greasy rails and that Atlantic will just sit at the bottom of the bank spinning its wheels until a six-coupled loco comes to its rescue. Now, why did the Bluebell let that second S15 go to rot away at the NYMR?!

 

How often does the Bluebell run a train of eight Mk1s? I can't find a photo showing more than six.

And, doesn't the railway have a range of locomotives, large and small, including four-coupled locomotives like the Dukedog and Stowe? You seem to believe they won't understand the capacity of a locomotive they've spent 20 years constructing. Or that they will understand its capacity and choose to overload it anyway. Why would they do either?

 

Personally, I can remember one occasion when I have worked an eight coach train (of bogie vehicles) on the Bluebell: with Flying Scotsman. Surprise surprise, we got up the hills, including from a dead stand at Kingscote, without problem, and no slipping. Seven coaches is rare, six our general limit, since anything bigger causes operational issues at Sheffield Park with short platforms.

Exactly. But others clearly have the deep operational insight and experience to know better...

Tom

 

Quite right! And besides which the original "Beachy Head" was no stranger to the Bluebell's route, and on much heavier trains than are common today. For examples of what they were capable of check out the details and pictures here: http://www.semgonline.com/steam/h1-h2_01.html

Steve B

 

Six coupled locos can slip too, I remember a trip to the Severn Valley once when a Manor (cant remember which one) slipped to a standstill and we had to be rescued by an 08. An ex LMR engineman in our group said it confirmed his view about GWR engines...

The Brighton Atlantics seemed to pull some pretty hefty loads back in the day judging from some of those photos and I wouldnt have thought 6 Mark 1s will unduly tax it

 

I thought that was all tongue-in-cheek; but maybe I'm too realistic, and then assumed they had to be joking...

Noel

 

you obviously are unfamiliar with what the LNWR regarded as normal . a George with 6 on thrashing up to Ais Gill would be a hoot and entirely feasible .

and this is a long way off topic , so no more from me on this subject -on this thread , at least

 

The old Atlantic coped because it wasn't stopping at every station, and wasn't limited to a maximum of 25mph. I still have my doubts about the usefulness of the loco on the Bluebell as is - and let's face it, nobody really knows, because nothing remotely comparable has been operated in preservation, other than 251 & 990's brief forays onto the main line early on.

My point about going to Brighton is grounded in practical realities. Going to the BML at Copyhold Junction is pointless because there's nothing there. Going to HH is an impossibility for the reasons I've already outlined. Given the Bluebell's ambitions beyond Ardingly, they would HAVE to go to Brighton, no two ways about it. I have personally ridden on an 8-coach train at the Bluebell, mostly Mk1s, operated by the S15, which romped up the hill without breaking a sweat. WHY DID THEY LET 830 GO?!

There was also an occasion at a Giants of Steam about 15 years ago when they put 11 Mk1s behind the 9F (and also behind two double-headed combinations, 73082/75027 and 21c123/34081. Alas, I have been unable to find video footage... Jon Bowers had some stills of it on his photo gallery, in the days when I frequented it. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/personal/jon-bowers/b-j.htm

BTW, does anyone know what happened to Mr Bowers, or why he stopped updating his gallery?

ETA: it appears he is now to be found on Flickr, and here's one of Camelot with 8 on... https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4584/38166094832_1561cc3660_b.jpg