If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

LMS 2P 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by joshs, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,437
    Likes Received:
    17,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think people involved is the most important, if you've got good people those three things out to follow. On the other hand you could pick the most useful, cheap steam loco imaginable, but if its chairman is called Alf Roberts you're still not going to donate!!
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Indeed, and the flip side is that the right people give confidence about funding. Given the complexities of the valve gear, sorting out vehicle stability etc, to a lesser team the P2 would look severely challenging for most groups to build; but the track record of the A1 team gives confidence that those issues can be addressed and therefore makes potential donors more confident in giving money. Witness the comparative rate of progress of two P2 new builds. So to be fundable, the loco type has to have a degree of popularity, but the team behind it also have to inspire confidence.

    Tom
     
  3. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I can certainly see why The County might attract more interest than a 2P..................
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    .... and there endeth the lesson! :)
     
  5. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,563
    Likes Received:
    3,316
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stanthorpe, QLD, Australia
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I would guess that GWR flavoured new build projects have the advantage of a large GWR fan base, coupled to a relatively finite choice of "what the hell can we build next?", thanks to Churchward and Co.'s standardisation. Being that enthusiasts can't agree on anything, and with so few missing link classes to dilute the pot, the chances of reaching critical mass might be better.
     
  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Indeed, the ‘cult of the GWR’ ;) also may help with developing that critical mass where as say there is less of a cult around say the Cambrian or any of the pre-grouping companies which are contemporary to the Churchward County.

    The P2 is a very well funded engine which means it is getting built very fast compared to say Beachy Head or the G5.

    To go back to the issue of usefulness, all I would say is this - a 2P would not doubt not be much use on the SVR, NYMR, as a day in day out loco, but it would I suspect have value to the AVR, or a line with relatively limited loads. Just as Cadbury was ideal when the GWR started out and 35005 would have been useless, but Cadbury is not much use now, as lines change so do demands. Kilmersdon is ideal for Helston or the Y7 for the MidSuffolk, and so on. I don’t think anyone would be expecting it to be working over the S&C singlehanded (although to be honest they never did that anyway so unless you batch build to ensure that you have a proper Midland two on the front, two on the rear and asking for more train).
     
  7. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    946
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Would any of these GWR locos be getting built if the GWS pick and mix department didn't exist, I think not.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The GWR new builds do seem obsessive about filling in every last loco from the mid twentieth century while studiously ignoring a period of the company’s history that is completely unrepresented, i.e. nineteenth century standard gauge locos. Given that in recent times the GWS has been short of motive power, and when all is said and done, they pull two coach trains on a flat half mile track, I can’t help thinking that a modest sized loco from the Armstrong / Dean era would not only have been more useful, but also of more historical and educational interest than the projects they are actually pursuing. A 517 class 0-4-2T, a Metro Tank 2-4-0T or an outside frame pannier tank would have been a really worthwhile project. A 47xx is ultimately scarcely distinguishable from a 28xx.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  9. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,563
    Likes Received:
    3,316
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stanthorpe, QLD, Australia
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Perhaps, or perhaps not - I'm leaning towards perhaps. At the time it probably seemed quite a logical pathway. If those options were not on the table, then I think GWR fans would have still have been lining up with wallets ready to recreate the lost classes behind whoever came up with the best proposal. Enthusiasts abhor a vacuum!
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  10. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,563
    Likes Received:
    3,316
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stanthorpe, QLD, Australia
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You are sounding more and more like PH every day! (Secretly I agree....except for the 47/28 comparison - Go to spec savers already!;))



     
    BrightonBaltic and Bill Drewett like this.
  11. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    I like the way that you say GWR fans are lining up with their wallets, yet speaking to the LMS patriot projects chairman (who is more of a GWR fan than LMS) and is heavily involved in the GW county 4-6-0, 4-4-0 and friends with people from the night owl etc, none of them actually (except for 6880 that does have a good income) have big ££££ coming their way. In fact while noone talks about the B17 spirit of Sandringham, that actually has a bigger income. As does the Clan. The only problem there is that both of those need to spend more to complete their locos so it's offset.
     
  12. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    i agree. The gaps that exist GWR-wise are around and before the turn of the century. The building of replicas that are fundamentally almost the same is the result of trainspotterism and that's the root cause of the malaise Didcot (for one) is suffering from. Hopefully we'll see a change once that generation bites the dust.
     
  13. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    The benefit of the standardisation that came into practice with the GW is that the pool of available parts taken from classes that are well represented means that none of these machines can be considered new builds in the way that the A1/P2, the Patriot and others are.
    Worse they are limited by increasing loading gauge issues, so as far as mainline access is concerned they are largely sunk and lost. So they are stuck at Didcot unless hired out and as Tom points out can be seen as an exercise in filling the survival gaps in mid twentieth century classes that the majority can relate to because they remember them.
    There is more to the history of GW locomotive development than the Churchward/Collett axis and the GWS need a reminder of this. And let us not mention the engines that have not turned a wheel in anger in many a year.
    The active interest in C19 locomotives is perhaps not what it should be, ditto early C20. Preserved lines have a problem in that the trains that they operate are quite frequently far heavier loaded than they were when in use as a part of the national network. So an historically appropriate engine might not find much use even if it existed. And if it doesn't have the chance of much use and doesn't exist, then why build one? There is not an infinite resource pool.
     
  14. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    indeed and with so many locos awaiting overhaul that in all probability will end up as museum pieces , the current fad for replicas is odd to say the least
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  15. JayDee

    JayDee Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    272
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swadlincote
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well, on that front you can look to 82045 for the logic behind it. A newbuild engine is easier to maintain and look after than something that's wondering when its bus pass is going to arrive in the mail...

    I suppose one thing to consider for other newbuilds as well would be if certain Chapeolonist/Porta/Wardale developments could be "snuck on" that are relatively invisible but would increase the power output by a decent enough degree to permit them to operate various heavier loads. That might solve some of the issues of the lower power that Midland Engines tended to have.

    That being said, 2P's could handle 5/6 coach trains fairly well, and round my way only doubled up with a black five or 4F when handling the heavy Saturday Shopping and Football Trains which were 12 coaches and headed round the Swad Loop Line, which was far harsher graded than a number of lines nearby...
     
    Gav106 likes this.
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It might indeed turn out to be one of those "what the hell were they thinking?" questions which gets asked in 30-40 years time.

    ... along with why exactly so many MKI carriages and DMMU's surviving into preservation didn't make it to full restoration. The arguments to and fro about asbestos removal would be interesting to read ..... and (here's a prediction) there will be those utterly unconvinced removing the lethal muck was any serious problem ..... "Asbestos? No... it was the cost of converting flushing to retention toilets and having no space for baby changing wheelchair facilities ...." ...... or "they all got scrapped when heritage lines all bought Pacers to operate services more economically" .....


    As I'll be wormfood long before that, no sleep will be lost over whatever might (or might not) happen. That'll be someone else's problem!
     
  17. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    You can always improve the power output but you have to look at the whole design because the general mechanical fabric may well not withstand the extra demands being placed on it. Chapelon paid a great deal of attention to making sure that frames were strengthened and improved so as to be capable of withstanding the new demands that were going to be placed upon them and his disciples followed suit. So in the case of the 2P under discussion you would probably only have the general outline adhered to.
     
    30854 likes this.
  18. JayDee

    JayDee Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    272
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swadlincote
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well, this is true. Mostly because they were only allowed to muck about with pre-existing locomotives. I suspect if you'd want to build this new from the ground up anyway you could find ways of reinforcing or tweaking certain designs to give you a 2P+. I was considering more "invisible" additions initially such as a Lempor exhaust, welded boiler, roller bearings and diesel style piston rings. All things that, at a glance would never be seen unless during an overhaul but might give the extra "oomph" needed to be an easier engine to live and work with.
     
  19. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    7,688
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Using the @Jamessquared method, a 2P could handle up to 6 Mark 1s on gradients up to 1:65, so, yes, some lines where not powerful enough but others where it would be ideal. As I said, maybe a bit high in the wheel but retains the last vestiges of Edwardian elegance which invokes The Railway Children and a whole era of rail travel that is poorly represented in active preservation but appealling to a public who love costume dramas and classic novel.

    Are there other locos better suited? Maybe, but I sense that, while each company may have had a similar design, some 'unsung' hero of simple design but up to 5 or 6 Mark 1s (and maybe a one more 30 ton earlier coach!) rather than an unusual but unsuitable design is where 'new builds' should be going. (D16?)

    Steven
     
  20. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    I get the impression that many preserved locos and most Mk1 coaches in service are using the residual life left in them on withdrawal and once this is gone they are laid aside for an overhaul that may well not come. Properley organised lines have planned for this, but I get the impression that many haven't.
     
    paulhitch, jnc, 30854 and 1 other person like this.

Share This Page