Edmonson tickets a lost "cause" for ever?

I think you will have a problem with the "nothing like leather" faction.

PH

 

Ah, FS my young friend, you have so much to learn. Allow me to educate you about the logic that shapes Paulhitchland, through the looking-glass...

1. There are two types of people, and only two types of people: 'enthusiasts' and 'normals'.
2. Only a trained expert can tell them apart, by looking out for a range of tell-tale signs. For example, liking large, named steam locomotives - enthusiast; showing no interest in what's pulling the train - normal. Enjoying having an Edmonson ticket punched - enthusiast; taking no interest in the ticket - normal. And so on.
3. Enthusiast's attitudes and opinions have no value. They can be safely discounted. DO NOT listen to these people! Normals are always right. These are the people to listen to.

Do not be fooled. Enthusiasts are cunning. They visit railways in disguise. She may look like a young mother on a family day out, but if she likes big locomotives she's an enthusiast. The children are just a cover. Shun her! If everyone on the train likes having a cardboard ticket punched, they're all enthusiasts. They've probably decided to come en masse as part of their global conspiracy to bring all heritage railways to financial ruin.

As a TTI it's vital that you learn this. If an enthusiast tries to engage you in conversation, walk away. The survival of our movement is at stake.

 

Interesting comment this as I was going to mention Snowdon where (unless it has changed since I last visited, a few years ago now) you are booked on a specific train up AND down. Which has always annoyed me - it's a hugely expensive railway, which I don't mind paying because it's a rack railway and there is nothing quite like the experience, but it would be nice to be able to spend more than about 10 minutes at the top. Yes, I suppose I could walk down, but that's not the point.
How do the Swiss manage it? Do they work on the basis that some of the trains outside the peak time (whenever that is) are half empty? I know that on my one trip on the Brienz-Rothorn Bahn I was the only passenger up AND down, but I did choose to go up a mountain railway in thick freezing fog(!) so that probably isn't typical. (Got a guided tour of the workshops and shed too! Lovely railway, great staff. But I digress...)

 

That's a true enthusiasts view of the world down to the use of the word "movement". Most members of family groups don't handle the tickets whilst parties are normally booked in advance by the dreaded electronics.

Tripadvisor is not infallible but I do recall one person who was pleased to find a line where as much attention was given to cleaning the inside of the carriages as the outside of the locomotive. Apparently she had been to one place where it was difficult to see out of the windows.

I have encountered myself, someone who was reminded of a well known pre-war watercolour by seeing a grained carriage door with its leather strap.What really impressed her was the train crew member bustling up to take off her pushchair to stow in the van and the fact that her child could play on the floor without getting dirty. These are the sort of things which impress "normals". @BrightonBaltic is spot on.

PH

 

How do you know? Have you spoken to every "normal", and every family group? My kids feel distinctly peeved when we visit railways where they don't get a little card ticket to look after.

And likewise, as per the Crich example - if we visit "Milestones", paying for a bag of sweets with an old penny is all part of the theatre, even if we've had to pay for that penny at the entrance with a real modern pound. The Penny is thereby carefully looked after until the time comes to visit the shop and spend it. You seem far too keen to assume that the things you personally like (and dislike) are therefore inevitably 100% representative of everyone else.

Tom

 

And there you have the crux of the debate. Are preserved railways to operate as businesses, where this information might help achieve these goals, or are they more of an experience, delivering something more to their customers?

Leaving aside the question of whether the business cases for EPOS on preserved railways stack up (I have my doubts, but suspect that the costs are starting to fall), my own experience of steam railways is that the ticketing is an important part of creating the illusion of participating in a historical experience. From childhood, I've found modern printed tickets (dot matrix at Porthamdog Harbour, for example) have created a "commercial" rather than "heritage" impression in my mind. A trip to the GCR (Edmondson) creates the feeling better than one to the NYMR at Pickering (modern heat printed).

 

Bottom line: We may be selling the illusion something as close to time travel as is possible, but it remains just an illusion for all that.

As long as them's as wants an Edmonson ticket gets an Edmonson ticket, the decision on whether it's the working receipt for a financial transaction or just a piece of souvenir pasteboard is one for an individual line's management.

Beyond pure nostalgia, ticketing is one of those specialist areas which needs folk versed in it's dark arts. If any line has attracted enough dedicated ticketing types to make a difference, the sky's the limit ... otherwise it's just yet another "nice to have" competing for sufficient resources.

I'd add to the post by @35B by saying however a line sees it's place in the grand scheme of things, the reality is, it has to recognise that operating as a business isn't optional, as a few places have discovered when a rich benefactor who's shielded them from reality for years eventually falls off their perch.

 

And if all you are focused on are the parties, then I agree, the theatre matters less. But whether a railway uses EPOS, something else modern/electronic, or Edmondson is all only part of the experience - your well worn anecdote about cleanliness is still entirely valid.

 

You have (? carefully) deleted the two specimen examples of what has been said by "normals" Presumably your children have been used, from a very early age to Daddy giving them a ticket and thus conditioned. Nothing wrong with that but it has to be a factor.

PH

 

Steven (Bean Counter) asks why some lines need to have the expense of installing EPOS systems. I can't speak for any railway, however, as far as the DSR is concerned, as far as I know, it is essential to know how many are booking particularly for sailings on the boats and buses. As I mentioned in an earlier post boats are limited to their capacity and if there was overbooking can you imagine the damage to the company's image if many people were told they could not board one of the boats even if they had paid well in advance for the voyage. It has to live up to the 'Holiday Line' slogan.
A couple have commented on the unique status of the DSR, but it is profitable - as is the rest of the Dart Valley PLC business - and does not rely on many volunteers or handouts.
It is all horses for courses I guess!
Whatever 'gimmicks' or other sales pitches are dreamt up unless those travelling on the lines trains, or using their facilities, get a welcome and enjoyable experience they will not return or give a good account to others. Even this thread has mention of some bad experiences. Standing room only would not be a good experience as far as I am concerned; that appears to be available on a daily basis on much of the national system.

 

BTH I suspect some lines will at least try abandoning the traditional railway practice of 'turn up and go' and 'you can get on and off at all stations' (FREQUENT passenger question 'Can I get off the train anywhere with this ticket?' - usual answer 'No, only at the stations!') in favour of an all pre-booked service like some lines Santa trains. I can even see that there may be a business case for this, but it will rely on being able to charge higher fares because you will attract fewer passengers for a less 'flexible' day - again, some lines, being shorter, may find it easier. Either way, I would suggest it fundamentally changes what preserved railways do and how they do it.

In that circumstance, EPOS would be useful. Demand control is seen as one of the things it offers, but I seriously doubt the extent to which what it could tell the operators of a preserved line about specific demand can actually be, in practice, acted upon in any meaningful way without the fundamental change to the 'product' offered unless all services are 'booked seat only'.

I have had said to me 'we should try and pre-sell the entire train and if people turn up on the day, they will have try a later train or come back another day. That will teach them to pre-book next time'. I seriously doubt this is the way to ensure a thriving and sustainable business but I could of course be wrong. Apparently, nearly 30 years of ticket inspecting and guarding have taught me nothing about what passengers REALLY like and dislike, and 2 1/2 decades if trusteeship and responsibility for the well-being of a railway have left me a hopeless 'train-spotter' whose own bias makes me blind as to what 'normals' really want and what is for the true benefit of the business! I would be interested as to how many of those which such strong views as to what 'normals' really appreciate or notice have actually regularly undertaken 'customer facing roles'!

BTW, still waiting for the detailed business case from the EPOS enthusiasts!

Steven

 

Don't really want to prolong this issue any further but need to say that I have undertaken such roles.

PH

 

Why does it have to be a choice? I suspect they need to be both. Of course, then the challenge is properly balancing them.

Noel

 

Indeed the challenge is to balance the two. Perhaps my post would have read better if I'd said "Are preserved railways to operate primarily as businesses, or are they more of an experience, delivering something more to their customers?"

 

I would still suggest that it isn't a choice - to be a viable 'business', they need to deliver an 'experience' that potential customers want to buy. Heritage forms an essential part of that experience, which is why I have never bought the 'commercial railway or preserved railway' argument in most cases. Yes, Torbay and perhaps one or two others successfully deliver 'largely commercial' but Torbay still offer a pastiche of the past, just in more of a selective, simplified and santised form than most other lines, yet oddly managing to catch the essence of what the line was perhaps better than many - what the GWR to the sea would be today if it hasn't abandoned steam, if you like!

Steven

 

Somehow I see a good many - particularly the larger lines with a more intensive service - having to go down the 'business' route especially if they have difficulty in maintaining a free labour volunteer force. This could arise in a couple of ways: supply of volunteers decreasing and/or new legislation making it more difficult to recruit or retain volunteers.

 

As an enthusiast, this would put me right off - the flexibility hop on and off different trains and explore the stations when I feel like it is essential.
As a non-enthusiast, I feel this would put off people like my sister - she wants to (for example) have a ride and then when hungry or thirsty get off and go to a station cafe, and resume the journey later.

If certain services on certain days are regularly overcrowded then some compulsory pre-booking may be indicated. Otherwise, keep the pre-booking for special services - dining, teas, santa etc.

 

Or possibly volunteers feeling less willing to continue working for an organisation that is losing the “soul” that made them wish to volunteer at a heritage-based, enthusiast attraction in the first place?

Tom

 

There IS nothing like leather. I wouldn't use anything else to recover wind reservoirs and pneumatic motors in a pipe organ. Perflex and the like just don't last. Otherwise, meh! I don't own any leather clothing, and although two of the three cars in this household have leather seats, on both hot summer and cold winter days, I prefer cloth...

As I recall it, the DSR&RC article in the Beano said that they have a rule-of-thumb as to how much coal PS Kingswear Castle burns per passenger on top of hauling itself around, so by being able to keep track of loadings in real time, they know how much it's going to burn and how much coal to order, when (so they're not paying the cost of storing a huge fuel reserve). It's probably much the same with train loadings too - while a 42xx and eight carriages will burn a certain amount, stick 400 passengers on and the coal burn will go up...

I'm not sure about all this... do the general public really care about stuff like Edmondson tickets and old pennies? The historic carriage argument is a rather different one IMO - there is a tangible difference between the Formica-and-nasty-upholstery interior of most Mk1s and a 1930s Maunsell (or Gresley teak, if that's your thing), or between those and the fantastic Victorian opulence of the IoWSR non-corridor stock... it's going to make a BIG difference to the whole experience. I don't think the same can be said of tickets, because when all is said and done, an Edmondson is just another piece of paper for 99% of people to throw in the bin when they're finished with it. The machines to produce them are complex pieces of engineering, requiring constant maintenance and repair. Spare parts support is non-existent - if it breaks, you've got to make a new part. Not such a huge problem, and if you're willing to spend that kind of cash, fair enough - but then you may as well open up the printing room to the public and let them SEE these fantastic old pieces of engineering, and at least rattle a can under their noses while they're there... but otherwise I can see little reason not to go to EPOS. If you get your choice of software platform right, it should be stable and intuitive to use...

I really don't buy the whole nostalgia/authenticity argument either. As already stated, the normies won't give a toss, and the rest of the railway will have changed out of all recognition too - Sheffield Park looks nothing like it did in 1960 (more's the pity, say I, but that's the reality of trying to run a business, I guess). Big-chufferitis is rampant, although I disagree with PH as to its necessity - for the most part, I suspect the public demand it, as the Tonka/Flying Moneypit effect (even Clan Line draws a heck of a crowd on her rare preserved-railway visits) would appear to demonstrate - and gala weekends look nothing like a peak summer day c.1955... we've got restaurants, gift shops, beer tents, art galleries, museums, colour-light signals in some places, no signals at all (cough Avon Valley cough) in others, Mk2 carriages behind pre-nationalisation and industrial steam, imported foreign locos in some places (e.g. KESR Mogul, other places' Polski TKHs, milk churns are notable by their absence/emptiness, etc etc... in the context of all this, I don't think Edmondson tickets matter one friggin' micron of a jot.

Agreed. I would not want to be restricted as to what train I was travelling on, not unless I was on a particularly long destination-to-destination line with plans to use it for one journey and get off at the other end for non-railway purposes (e.g. if the LSWR Exeter-Plymouth route were to be reopened throughout as a preserved steam-operated secondary main line, running faster than 25mph!) - and even then, I would want to at least have the option of buying a rover ticket to do whatever the heck I wanted en route.