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35009, Shaw Savill

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by KentYeti, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    You make a good point Jonathan, I also think it's about what's a known quantity, you look at IOS's fleet, for example we know a certain A2 needs a new middle cylinder but I should imagine NELPG had a look at 60532 and also said 'X,Y and Z' need a look at, and that information has (hopefully) passed on to its new custodians. Useful as A Class 8 go anywhere pacific is, why make a start on a Barry Wreck ( such as 35009) when you have 3 class 5's in working order that you know exactly what needs doing to them in a planned regime? I think since 1998 45407 has worked every year on the mainline, 4965 would have been the same if not for circumstances beyond its control. I think we're starting to see a lot more of a 'controlled' maintenance rather than 'run it till its next ticket, we'll sort it out then' type of operation. Certainly be interesting to see what the next 'Straight from Barry' restoration to go mainline is.
     
  2. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    No, can't disagree with your rationale there sadly. Must admit the WC/R&SE "tie up" was where I could see scope for an arrangement of mutual benefit but when you consider the demands at 10A already perhaps sponsoring MN9 through an overhaul is a bit fanciful. It would likely take longer than MN18 to shop and that took 5 years, the landscape might be entirely different by then. It does seem like MN9 has missed the boat, when you analyse it, more's the great pity.
    Now where's that lottery ticket ........?
     
  3. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    Some balanced and good analysis above. Looking at things from the perspective of "Who would find it a commercially attractive proposition to restore 35009?" the answer is clearly not very promising. With my WIBN hat on, I sometimes wonder if there are enough of us on this forum to cough up sufficient cash to make an unattractive proposition a bit more attractive for someone to take on (money-where-your-mouth-is?). What would it take? 3 million? I guess the answer is that any project so favoured is unlikely to be another Bulleid pacific. Tough luck, 35009.
     
  4. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Most likely 7027?
     
  5. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Possibly, but hasn't a contract its owner was intending to fund its overhaul with been caped? Maybe 6880 or 2999 will be on the Shakespeare before 7027? If you count those as Barry Restorations
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    A very wealthy person with direct access to workshop facilities.
    Even if a major new investor appeared on the scene, as has happened down the years, the places with expertise to carry out a restoration in less than glacial timescale are few and far between. In fact the number of contract engineering workshops is vanishingly small, when you think about it.
     
  7. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Really?

    IOS already have 2 MNs awaiting overhaul.

    The British Enginemen group have been working on their 5 for quite a while now and their other loco 35010 Blue Star, has had little, if anything, done to it since leaving Barry. I doubt they'd have the capacity (engineering or financial) to want to take on another MN.

    Keith
     
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  8. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Did try and emphasise the Might,
    The thing with a preservation group is ' - Hey guys Here's £xxx,000 for your part restored black 5, I will fully restore it intwo years in line with your 'Raison d'Etre' as opposed to the dozen it will take you, hey ill even name it after your group. Nowyou can then start on the other wreck you have, tell you what - here s yet another wreck for spares'
    That might actually look like a good deal... but if you and your buddies spent a dozen years o your life putting it right piece by piece it must be hard to let go..
     
  9. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    IMO the lack of interest in 35009 (and other members of the class e.g. 35025) suggests that there is little demand on heritage lines or even the main line for further restored MN's. As 35010 has a smashed cylinder and 35011 lacks a crank axle it would make sense to combine the best bits of the two and provide a spare 'pool' boiler. I'm sure the 'preserve everything at all costs' brigade will disagree.
    Ray.
     
  10. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I agree with that but maybe the cost of acquisition for a new owner proves a barrier too? I seem to recall there was lots of interest in 35025 at one time but the owners reportedly had an unrealistic price in mind.
     
  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    That would be the pragmatic approach , but as ever there are owners who will not even accept that they will never restore their engine, i'm not counting Ian Riley in this, he is a realist , hence why he chose to invest in his 5's, and sold on his share in 34067,and sold his standard 4, 35011 of all of them has the most chance except for 35027/22 as I can only see these 2 being the next mainline MN'S
     
  12. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    All very well but your point rather ignores the issue of ownership.
     
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  13. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    and the fact that fund-raising is progressing for the new crank axle for 35011 in addition to considerable work being undertaken on it and the purchase of replacement items. The only significant issue with 35011 (other than the constant need for funding!) is the ongoing search to find a better restoration location. 35011 has a much brighter future than most "Barry condition" MNs and will, of course, be unique amongst the survivors.
     
  14. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I had "liked" post #309 but The Saggin' Dragon and Kinghambranch make good sense, so I have "unliked".
     
  15. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    I'd say that 35025 is the only currently vulnerable MN. 35022 will be done up at Crewe sooner or later and as far as 35009 is concerned, people have heard conflicting accounts of whether or not Mr Riley is working on it. Only the good man himself can give us a definitive answer here, but if nothing is currently being done, we can be confident that he won't dispose of it unless it would be to someone with a proven (and funded) plan to return it to working order. 35010 is in safe hands and will be restored, I am confident, but we may have a very long wait. I can't blame the group for tackling 45293 first as, even without 35010's cylinder problem, a Black Five is a less daunting project than an MN.

    What the market for MNs on the main line (Or heritage railways, even) will be like when 35010 finally returns to action is anyone's guess as we are talking at least a decade, if not considerably longer, into the future. I just wish that 35009 was working now. It would certainly be kept busy. Both SD and RTC have had to cancel much of their July programme in the south of England through lack of suitable motive power and 60009, which is handling what little main line (non-British Pullman) steam is running down south in July and August is in its last year of active service.
     
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  16. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, as I said "IMO".
    Ray.
     
  17. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    The trouble is, just how long can 35010 afford to wait? Given the average age profile of most steam restoration groups, will her current owners actually live long enough to tackle the MN once 45293 is complete? I hate to sound critical - but sometimes one has to be realistic.

    If we lived in a world where the railway preservation movement was entirely controlled by a single 'curator', then the idea of combining the best bits of 35010 and 35011 would have made a lot of sense. But preservation is a private enterprise - and I think most of us would agree that it is better that way. However, this does mean that "you pay your money and take your choice". It's the new-build schemes which seem to be having the most success at attracting money, so if there really is a desperate shortage of class 8 power for the main line (which I struggle to believe!), then I think it will be new-build engines which fill the gaps. I'll wager that 2007 steams long before 35009, 35010, 35022 or 35025...if any of the latter ever steam again. She may even steam before 35027...Hosking has a lot on his plate, and his MNs seem to keep getting pushed down the list of priorities.

    That's why I think that, of all the MNs which are yet to steam, 35011 has the best prospects right now. Like the new builds she will give us something new and different; she has a "unique selling point". So if you really feel the world needs another MN, then I say she's the one to put your money and time into. I would do so myself, but sadly like most of us I have limited amounts of both, and there are only so many projects I can get involved with!
     
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  18. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I do agree with your sentiment, there are two few hands and not enough cash already for any part-time / volunteer group to restore a MN, 35011 apart. We only have to see how long 35006 took to gauge the enormity of the task.
    A hard-headed pragmatic business decison is another matter, so we can only hope one of the resource-rich modern steam barons sees the value in prioritising a MN above something else that may have more sentimental appeal. Or some nouveau riche splashes the cash.
     
  19. athelney

    athelney Member

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    Agree that 35011 seems the most likely to succeed in this era .....if a suitable restoration site can be found, I'm sure it will take off similar to 2007 , I know Im behind it and I live in Canada ! ........
     
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  20. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    One of the reasons that Bulleids like Shaw Saville may not have generated so much interest is because so many Bulleid Pacifics survive. There is a Grand total of 31 of them that still exist. (too many ?). Compare that with only 1 A3, 1 V2, 1 A2 etc. I am sure if it was say a Duchess, A3, V2 etc sitting there in bits then it would have been of greater interest, but the Barry Scrapyard phenomenon has meant that there is not a very even balance of locos that are preserved. The LMS and LNER were the biggest of the big 4 but have the fewest survivors especially the LNER types. With Bulleids any of the obvious places like Swanage, Bluebell, Mid Hants etc have already got several of them. Other organisations like Icons of Steam and West coast also have 2 or 3 each.

    However, there is one organisation that I am amazed hasn't shown some interest that would be ideal in my opinion and that is the Merchant Navy Preservation group owners of Clan Line https://www.clan-line.org.uk/ who have done an excellent job with the one they have which they obtained direct from BR so any ideas why they haven't taken on a second one ? (perhaps Shaw Saville). They have the experience and may have some useful spare parts and having Clan Line would help in that they have an existing loco to refer to when making new parts. They could even swap parts.

    Does anyone with knowledge of the group know why they haven't looked at a second Bulleid. Is it just a shortage of Labour and money ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
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