West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Having smaller engines on the line seems to be considered a bad idea these days. This is why pannier 6412 was sold - it got to the stage where it was only useful for hauling the Quantock Belle (4 coaches). I don't know how well the trains are loaded throughout the season but as far as I can see they are generally formed of a mimimum of 6 coaches so I assume the demand is there.

 

Agree 100%. A modern signalling system is not what we need. I wonder if there is a way of speeding up the return of the token to the machine and the issuing of another.

Steve

 

I'd agree with that. Over the past couple of months I've traveled on quite a few heritage railways and shared a coach with a good number of families with 5-10 year olds. In most cases it was obvious that said 5-10 year olds were often bored silly with the whole "riding on the train" thing within about 10-15 minutes and had no interest whatsoever about the view out of the window despite valiant efforts by parents to engage their interest in what was outside the window.

 

If you want to appreciate the capabilities of a pannier tank then see post 589 in the Dartmouth SR thread. I believe there are steeper gradients there than on the WSR.

 

Varied maybe, but not as interesting or spectacular as some other well known lines.

 

Yes, employ former Olympic sprinters as signalmen or train crew. What's Usain Bolt up to these days?

 

Yes, but not all panniers are the same. Pannier 6412 is of the 64xx class which is not in the same league as a 57xx pannier which is what they have on the Dartmouth SR these days.

Incidentally 6412 used to be on the Dartmouth SR back in the 1970s before it moved to the WSR. However I don't think the loads were so great in the early days. The Dartmouth SR also had 6435 for a while but that had to go too due to the need for bigger engines to handle 7-8 coach trains.

 

If you practice "first in, last out", the second train needs only the amount of time the platform staff deem necessary to reliably dispatch a train (say 2 minutes); and the first in needs to arrive a couple of minutes earlier and will not be ready to depart for a couple of minutes after the other arrival. Conceivably a dwell time of about 6 minutes for one train and perhaps 2 for the other, depending how aggressively you want to try and cut times. That assumes that the first train arrives from the end opposite the signal box. (For example, at Blue Anchor, the train from Williton would arrive at xx.00; gives up BA - WN token to signalman who runs it through his/her box and re-emerges to swap tokens with the train from Minehead (arriving at xx.03). That train is ready to depart at say xx.05 towards Williton. Meanwhile, the signalman has run the MD - BA token through the box and returns it to the first train, which is ready to depart about xx.06. Gives two minutes stop for the up train - governed purely by the needs of train dispatch; and six for the down - governed primarily by the needs of the signal box.

That's realistically as quick as you can manage with traditional signalling, and depends on (1) having sufficient station staff to dispatch two trains from opposite platforms almost simultaneously and (2) the section times either side making FILO convenient. If the sections are the wrong length and the first to approach is from the signal box end, your options are (1) hold it outside the station until the other train arrives (not good for passengers) or (2) bring it in, but require the fireman to make a walk back to the signal box for the token. Either way, you do worse than the optimal possible timings.

That's the theory, but it will always be compromised by how even the section lengths are. As an example, on the Bluebell, we generally cross in the "optimal" way at Horsted Keynes, with the result that the up train stops for only a couple of minutes, and the down train is stopped for about 8 minutes: the fireman generally uses the time to bring coal forward. If we cross at Kingscote, normally it is the "non optimal" way, with the result that the up train makes a very brief stop, but on the down train, the fireman has to walk back for the token.

Tom

 

Walk quicker...

Having trains arrive in the right order (and having a timetable written to try to help that happen) can make a big difference: if possible you want the train on the line furthest away from the signalbox to arrive first, so you don't have to walk round the first train to reach the second.

Ultimately, though, in my experience the biggest difference is in how fast the signalman can do the job safely; and there can be a lot of variation between a newly-qualified, slightly less confident signalman in their sixties and an experienced one in their thirties. The latter, doing a crossing, can get the first train on the move a couple of minutes after the second has arrived; the former can take twice as long. Unfortunately, though, signalmen are not born fully experienced.

(having checked the train register pages for my last signalling turn at a crossing box: generally when crossing trains I send Train Entering Section three minutes after sending Train Out Of Section for the second train to arrive.)

 

A wider audience might not make that assumption

 

I tend to agree but wasn't there a 57XX pulling 6 coaches in the Spring Gala ? I do remember in the dark and distant past in BR days a Pannier of some sort , ( I was only 6 or 7 at the time and trains were just another way of getting around ) but I do remember 4 on Monday to Friday but a Prairie on Saturday with 6 on . There maybe some economy with fuel but does anything that isn't a tender engine have enough water capacity ? Just asking .

 

The Black 5 exchanged whistles with Pannier 6412 at Totnes Riverside as The Royal Duchy passed by today. 37706 (D6716) visited Minehead with main line charter trains in both August 2014 and July 2016, and hauled at least one stone train to Minehead 20 years ago. Not so far off topic after all!

 

From what I heard the other day, he is attempting to kickstart a football career in the A-league.

 

See my other posting - the point is that a 57xx pannier is a more poweful beast than a 64xx. I would expect one to handle 6 coaches on the WSR - I've seen one hauling 7 or 8 on the Severn Valley. Regarding water capacity I'm not aware of any water facilities between BL and MD so any loco has to be able to do a one-way trip on a single tank of water. Small Prairie tanks have shown themselves to be capable of doing it with 6/7 coach loads, although I don't know how much water they have left at the end of a run.

The only water problem I remember was with a Pannier (9466) which ran so low during a gala that they attached a garden hose to it at Crowcombe!

 

If it takes so long to pass trains as some on this thread allege, then there would be plenty of time to take water. It would be entertainment for the passengers.

PH

 

Sorry to re-state my earlier comment. Thanks to @Forestpines and @Jamessquared for their replies. Most of the procedural processes mentioned are already in place but it all rather depends on things going to plan. For example, the Down train is due to arrive at Blue Anchor three minutes before the Up (the box is at the Down end of the station) so it should all work fine with no 'long walks', but it only takes the loading of a wheelchair user (like my family) up the line at Washford to make the Down train arrive late at Blue Anchor. So I was thinking more about a solution less dependent on those nasty variables that mess things up. I was looking at auxiliary token machines and wondering if these might help at crossing stations (esp Crowcombe) by doing away with the 'long walk' (or even the 'short walk'? Or is that just not an option? Any signalling engineers around?

Steve

 

That would only work in one direction though Paul! Slightly baffled by the use of the word "allege", but there we go. I'm also unconvinced anyone would get up out of their seat to watch the loco take in water half way through their journey. Usually, once people are sat, they don't want to lose their place, even only sending a representative to the buffet car!

 

How long are signalmen prepared to hold trains outside stations to prevent the "long walk" Steve? I've known trains be held a good 5 minutes or so with us to keep everything in order and never heard a single grumble from passengers - if the "wrong" train is let in first, generally you know something's up!

 

They didn't manage to do that at Dartmouth though!

 

Producing an ideal timetable is virtually impossible on a railway the length of the WSR. Start with a single loco and train and decide what your starting time is going to be. From then on, if you are going to utilise your asset, the rest of the days timetable is effectively cast as journey time plus run round/water/PNB until it is the end of the operating day. Add a second train from the other end and decide on your starting time. Tweak this to achieve a crossing place with the first train but, other than that, the same rules apply. All you can control is the dwell time at each end which you can lengthen but probably not shorten. If you want to fill in the gaps, you can add a third train but that isn't necessarily easy. Then, you have to look at the crews length of day. Gone is the era of 13-15 hour shifts so it is quite possible that you will need to double crew the loco. Again, not easy, as you have to make their day worthwhile and, also important, the people have to end up where they started their day. Or provide taxis. At least the WSR doesn't have to tie in with connection times, AFAIK.