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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    My comments are

    1. Obviously the P2s were underperforming otherwise they wouldn't have been taken out of service and rebuilt in the middle of the war. But without knowing how much of the shop time was due to the rebuilding programme --- or at least the average time taken to do the rebuilds--- it's difficult to put numbers on this. But the days off for repair at the sheds stats are probably telling.

    2. The Scots got a lot out of their A3 and A4 fleet, especially the latter, right through the period.

    3. It looks as though the A2s were viewed pretty much on a par with the rest of the Pacifics in England but in Scotland they seemed to be ranked below by 1946, more on a par with the V2s. If that's a fair assessment, it would be interesting to discuss why. Is it the pattern of work, rostering, or were they unpopular up there and why?

    4. I wonder how that data compares with mileages for the rest of the Big Four, especially the LMS. Surely to maintain averages per loco in the 40k and 50k bracket right through those five years is some achievement.
     
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  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    So to clarify - do you now think there was justification for their rebuilding?

    Agreed.

    On what basis do you use the word "ranked?" - purely in availability percentages?

    The V2s number 184 compared to the A2 sub classes' 12.

    In any event - the A2s have overall higher availability (one loco literally achieves 93% availability). Surely that "ranks" them higher?

    A friend has provided me with some LMS figures for 1942 and 43. I am digesting these. It looks as if the LNER's availability problem was very real and much worse than the LMS. Thompson's worries throughout 1941 to 1943 regarding availability and maintenance looks increasingly justified (to me).
     
  3. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I'll PM you on points 1 and 3 so this doesn't get too tedious for everyone else. But just to say what a good job you've done unearthing this stuff and it's a good part of the jigsaw puzzle, other parts being what the mechanical and civil engineers, operators and commentators are on record as saying at the time or subsequently.
     
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  4. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    The LMS had done a huge amount of work to reach high levels of availability, partly by scrap-and-build, partly by investing in new shed facilities, partly by organisational improvements. Note the improvement was most dramatic under Fowler and Anderson, despite the stick they usually get (rightly, perhaps) for silly design decisions such as inadequate axleboxes and (in some cases) poor front ends.
    The biggest improvement under Stanier was due to the more robust Swindon inspired boilers (especially fireboxes).
    Just to be clear, all the above is as reported in Cox, Jenkinson, etc. Not from looking at the figures...!
    The key thing was that, e.g. fewer Duchesses could do the same amount of work (revenue ton-miles per year) as more A4s.
     
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  5. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    the Duchesses were , if I remember correctly , stopped at 80K miles for a general , regardless of condition . Was that still the case during the war , or were they allowed to run DOC ?
     
  6. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    DOC?
     
  7. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    Depending on Condition
     
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  8. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    On the contrary, I'm finding the discussion fascinating. :)

    Yes indeed. Thanks @S.A.C. Martin for sharing.

    I think getting away from personal accounts with the use of some raw data is part of what I have found fascinating. Putting aside the fact that statics can probably be manipulated for devious motives....(I have faith that Simon will use them judiciously!), I often find that when reading accounts along the lines of "engine crews (et al.) liked or disliked" there pops up a little voice in my head questioning whether the anecdote can be completely on the mark and is not influenced by some innocent or downright nefarious manipulation. One thing that human nature can be relied upon for, to a greater or lesser degree, is 'subjectivity' - something that enthusiasts display in spades!
     
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  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Apologies for the lateness of my contribution (away on holiday) but 2 points that may be relevant :

    1. The reason for Scotland's "extra" day I suspect is that the Scots never considered Christmas Day as an official day off - I recall my mother working on Christmas Day albeit only for half-day in the local laundry. If memory serves then it was only declared as an official holiday late last century; before then the "local" attitude was defined as "Christmas for the kids - Hogmanay for the adults" hence the "extra" day being Christmas Day.

    2. S.A.C. Martin has little to fear about the boredom factor given that the subject is of interest to many, serious discussions have taken place and I'm certain that many new leads and much additional information has been generated to provide evidence that is worth consideration (and evaluation) as part of the data collation required before any book is considered.

    My only fear is that so much has appeared on the forum that the final book will be considered an anti-climax to the wealth of information on this thread.
     
  10. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    But wasn't Hogmanay an official holiday in Scotland?
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    1st Jan was an official holiday in Scotland, along with Christmas day and Boxing day. 1st Jan did not become a public holiday in England and Wales until about 1974. Not sure of the exact year but I can remember I had to go in to work on the very first one!
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    When you consider that this thread has been going for just over six years now (!) when you read back much of the discussion, the source material I have collated from during the second world frames the whole thing entirely differently.

    The original starting point was everything we had ever read on Edward Thompson from the timekeepers, and from people like Cox and Harrison. The original starting point was that Thompson was an embittered old man with a grudge against Gresley, who in wartime rebuilt some of his finest locomotives and did so with malice.

    We've all come across the odd quote - "trying to rid the LNER of Gresley", "harboured a grudge", "Machiavellian campaign against all that was Gresley". It was already in our minds that everything Thompson was bad.

    And so as we've discussed things, and looked at new sources of information, and dissected things, and asked more and more questions, several things have happened.

    For me, my thinking has changed completely from that first question in my head, which was "is this true?" when a friend, knowing nothing about Thompson, questioned my own attitude to him.

    I have also had some slings and arrows fired at me. Few hurt, because I think (particularly now) that there is merit in what I am doing and what I feel I have to say. I have been called revisionist, a liar, and many other things. In public, at a few railways over the years, older gentlemen with particular viewpoints have called me out and been quite aggressive.

    I am noting that the more I post on the statistics, the less vocal voices have disappeared. I wonder if they are still reading?

    In the last year, I have made several break throughs in the research and in no small part thanks to people like Andrew Hardy (author of the most recent and excellent publication on the P2s). We have spoken at length, discussed the finer points, do not necessarily always agree but we do understand that we are trying to move the debate forward and for railway history to be better served than it has been previously.

    My intention has never been to decry Gresley by elevating Thompson. It has always been to look at Thompson and ask if he has been fairly treated. The answer, if we take the LNER's own official statistics as gospel, is clearly a resounding no in the one sense that there clearly were serious problems on the LNER with the availability of locomotive stock - that much I am confident of.

    Which does mean that subsequently, a number of people's accounts of the period can be questioned. Why was JF Harrison so sure that Thompson did this out of malice? Why did Cox call Thompson's desire for change a Machiavellian campaign, when he was the author of a report that fairly strongly damned the work of a man he sought to defend by decrying Thompson?

    I won't have answers to those questions. It will be more or less up to the individual to decide. But if some of you read this thread, my subsequent book, look at ALL of the facts, both contemporary and in hindsight, and still come away with the view that Edward Thompson's main aim in WW2 was to destroy Gresley's legacy, then I am afraid you may have learned nothing from the at times excellent debate and analysis that has been prevalent in this thread, sometimes more than any other (and I say that in spite of the at times robust and at other times borderline aggressive postings we have seen - and yes, I have been guilty of some of that myself when my own patience has worn thin, and for that I humbly apologise).

    Thank you for Fred for your kind words on this. I started out looking to do something completely different and I hope my work, and that of others like Andrew Hardy's, helps to frame future discussions and debate on our railway history in a constructive, evidence based manner.

    On the contrary Fred - you have seen but a small sample of work still. There are still surprises to be had. I have kept a couple of cards close to my chest in that respect. I look forward to furnishing you with an electronic copy as promised in due course.

    I just want to add my thanks for the last few weeks everyone. It has been a very long summer in a few regards. My work on Thompson does help me concentrate on the bigger picture at times. I hope the book - now reaching its likely conclusion and publication - does one thing more than most. I hope that it would be a book that most people would find fair and balanced. I do not seek to ruin reputations, or build them, but to report the likely both sides of the story as it actually happened.
     
  13. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    Statistics bore me immensely, but il tell you this you've turned my view on its head. I began as an ardent Thompson hater now I see him in a different light.
     
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  14. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    But Christmas in England covers 2 Days - Christmas Day and Boxing Day whilst Hogmanay only covers 1 day - the day itself hence the extra "working day" operated by Scottish depots.
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think the minutiae of how Christmas is reckoned in England and Scotland risks ignoring the elephant in the room - namely, why did they take 311/312 days as the basis for statistics, and not 365?

    Surely the LNER was running some services on Sundays? Did they not need any large locos on Sunday’s? And if not, how did they account for the operational days of the next tier down - the 4-6-0s, 4-4-2s and 4-4-0s? What were those large locos doing on Sundays - if they were on shed for e.g. washout and other shed time, surely that should be accounted for what it is, not hidden?

    For @S.A.C. Martin - two things I think would be important to understand to ensure any statistical analysis has the widest possible value. One is why the LNER accounted that way. The other is how other companies accounted - especially the LMS, with which the LNER Board seem to have been drawing unfavourable conclusions if I understand correctly.

    Obviously, to do comparisons between classes and sheds on the LNER, it doesn’t especially matter - you can do the comparisons with either 311 or 365 as the denominator and the relative strengths and weaknesses between classes will still be valid. But if an important part of the story also draws in the fact that Thompson was feeling pressure from his board about the comparison with the LMS, then to see if that board view was valid or not, you obviously need to calculate the figures on the same basis.

    Tom
     
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  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Paul - even if your view isn’t entirely turned - it gladdens the heart that you say that.

    For my part, I think him very misunderstood.

    Not a saint - a man - one under extremes of pressure - and doing his best as they all were in WW2.
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I think the main reason for taking 311 days was because the normal working week was six days, especially on the railways where the timetable for Saturday was generally the same as Monday - Friday. Sundays had a much lower level of operating with many trains not running. It was also still largely a day of rest and those that weren't required to work had the day off. You also paid overtime for Sunday working so you minimised the number of staff that you required to work. Thus, any requirement for the number of locomotives, crews, boiler washers and other needs would have to be based on the Monday - Saturday requirements. If you washed out a boiler on a Sunday it was more of a needs must than a routine. Introducing Sundays into the statistical information would skew all the statistical figures.
     
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  18. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    all (most) locos had a rostered shed day each week for wash outs etc , so a working week would be 6 days .the rostered day would usually not be a sunday , but a regular recurring day would be planned for each loco . so nowt to do with holidays - just planned maintenance when the loco would not be available
     
  19. RobHickerton

    RobHickerton New Member

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    [QUOTE="
    The biggest improvement under Stanier was due to the more robust Swindon inspired boilers (especially fireboxes).
    /QUOTE]
    What about the axleboxes and horns? the midland ones were very skimpy. even 4Fs can knock them out
    Rob
     
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  20. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Actually, this is only partly true.
    If the LNER board and Thompson *believed* they had an availability problem, on the best evidence available, then their actions can be defended. Even if 80+ years later someone decided the evidence wasn't actually right.
    Unless the suggestion is that the number of days may have bee deliberately fudged to make the LNER look bad.
     
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