LSWR T3 563

Already done while you were typing. Thanks Tom.
Gees, you guys are quick. I can tell its a rainy Sunday!

 

To be fair the great lost project was the diner that was destroyed in the fire at Ropley. If ever there were a new build LSWR carriage then that would be one.

Although ironically they would be more authentic as trains often seem to have run with three or four brakes in a formation.

 

Surely would that have only been where the train had portions for other destinations, such as the ACE? as each brake would be for each separate designation. would the ordinary trains over say the secondary routes have has multiple destinations from junction stations

 

Southern coaches were largely allocated into sets which would have a brake at either end and 2 to 7 or so coaches in between. These would be allocated to specific trains on the diagrams. The ACE ,as I inderstand it, did have multiple sets in use, some of the portions would be a single coach, which would have to be a brake I guess.

 

I don't know. This is just impressionistic but looking at accident reports when guards describe their trains they seem to often have multiple brakes. For example a Waterloo-Plymouth service from 1915 (whether this was going to split later on I don't know). I also don't know how much more likely splitting was and how extensive the use of fixed sets was).

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Wilton1915.pdf

Two Bogie Thirds (attached at Salisbury)
Bogie Third Brake
Bogie Composite
Bogie Third Brake
Bogie Dining Saloon
Bogie Brake Composite,
Bogie Third Brake
Bogie Third
S.E.Luggage Van

So a 10 coach train with 4 brakes and a luggage van.

Or this one from 1890

2.15, p.m. train from Bath to Bournemouth West (consisting of tank-engine, brake-van, one composite carriage, one bogie composite brake-carriage, two third-class, one saloon, one third-class, and one composite carriages, and one brake-van).

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1390

As I say, this is just impressionistic and whether it is a legacy of concerns about lack of brake power I don't know, how common these types of formation were or how long they lasted I don't know. But I would argue that you could run a train with several brakes and it would not be unauthentic, in fact it might even be more authentic than a train with single brake.

 

Trespassing ever nearer the dreaded W.I.B.N., "Ironclads" are from the time of Urie rather than Adams and may well be as heavy as a Mk. 1 for all I know. Even if "Glulam" framed six wheelers prove practical. they would be mighty expensive and, without a spur similar to the Channel 4 series, would take a frightfully long time. Much as it pains me to admit it, I can imagine this supremely elegant machine fated to haul supremely characterless Mk 1s.

PH

 

Trespassing ever nearer the dreaded W.I.B.N., "Ironclads" are from the time of Urie rather than Adams and may well be as heavy as a Mk. 1 for all I know.

Mk 1s were 32.5-36.5 tons, the ironclads ranged from 35-36 tons, so about the same. As the maximum train length on the SR is five coaches and the line isn't particularly heavily graded I don't think 563 would be overtaxed by this sort of load. I don't think there are enough Ironclads around to make up a 5 coach train, though, let alone earlier SR corridor stock. From a purist poiunt of view, 563 would have better off being donated to the Bluebell, where it would at least be able to run with a selection of early SR stock. Maybe they'll be given the Wainwright D instead!

 

Unfortunatly Ironclads are the only genuine LSWR coaches that we have that made it into preservation, And even then, many were gutted and changed to departmental use, so very very few, if any are complete, I suppose the nearest any railway could get to a lswr rake would be if the LSWR Royal saloon , the composite from the Bluebell and the NRM'S LSWR coach could be borrowed on launch day along with an Iron clad brake vehicle that's outwardly restored and has has a mechanical overhaul to look the part, or possibly two if they can be done in time, are any ironclad brake vehicles in runnable condition with working brakes ?

 

Sorry guys but the stovepipe is part of its USP.



Not my photo of course - but she has to come back like this first time around. No ifs, ands or buts. Look at her and look at this scene. You’d be mad not to try and get most out of her first ticket.

 

I don't really care what she hauls as long as she does.

 

Sounds like a great project, count me in!


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I’m sure you would have once dismissed the idea of restoring the IOWSR four wheelers as WIBN. Now they have a rake of 7 of them in service.

Not everything is realistic or achievable, but everything has to start somewhere.

Worst case there will be some Maunsell coaches for 563 to haul at Swanage. One is due in service shortly, another is progressing and others are in the pipeline.

 

eventually yes she should have suitable coaches to haul that are home based, but going back to my suggestion of hiring in a LSWR rake for a launch into traffic event, what coaches are likily to be available, obviously there is the newly restored LSWR Royal Saloon, and the Coach from the Bluebell, what other pre grouping design coaches could be available? for instance, is the NRM vehicle maintained in working condition, things like wheel flange condition and vacuum brake condition? when they move vehicles, do they move them un braked or if they are piped, do they try to create a brake?

 

OK here's an idea that's most certainly straying into W.I.B.N. territory. Looking at Moguls' list of the surviving Ironclads, I note that there are four brakes and four TKs. So I got to thinking [provided you could get all eight together] that you could make two four coach sets, made up as follows BTK+TK+TK+BTC and BTK+TK+TK+BTK. Personally I'd restore two of the Brake Thirds as disabled access vehicles with the access being via the van/Guards area, making them opens rather than corridor coaches fitted out with the necessary anchoring points for wheelchairs and a disabled loo in the van area........ The sole surviving BTC and the other BTK being restored along with the TKs to as near as possible original condition.

It would I also feel make a better possibility of getting a lottery grant, if they and 563 were all grouped together as a single project.......

 

Together with one bogie vehicle (also a grounded body) these seven vehicles have taken well over thirty years to bring back into service. For much of this time there has been the advantage of a purpose built carriage works. All I am saying is "lay off the W.I.B.N. a bit" not that it cannot be done. Given time and money (plus skill) and it could be.

PH

 

2392, I’m afraid the BTC is an underframe only now. Body scrapped some time ago.

Applying for joint funding to include 563 and the ironclads may be a good idea.

First things first though, for now we need to wait for news on 563 and whether it is to be restored to running order or not.

 

If the intention is to go for lottery funding then loco + appropriate coaches makes a far stronger case than loco alone.

 

Whilst entertaining reading, it does seem like the cart is being put before the horse.

 

I think there is potential here for a lot of interested parties in railway preservation to come together to do something utterly spectacular. If we can see a number of basket-cases coaches restored in a six month period to working order; if we can see the WHR reopened, if we can see new builds galore and the cutting to East Grinstead restored, why on earth do we think it would be too far to create a decent length of LSWR train for this gem to pull?

But I absolutely agree - see if 563 can be restored to working order first. If it can - why can't we have an open discussion between interested parties about the existing rolling stock we have. Railway preservation is at its best when we all pull together.