LSWR T1 new build ?

There seems to be some confusion here about Drummond (Dugald). He came to the LSWR after a very varied career, earlier in which he had designed some very fine locos for both the NBR and the CR, which were in their time considered superb. On both lines later, more famous 4-4-0s such as the Glens and Dunalastairs owe a lots to earlier Drummond designs, for example. In fact, his earlier, more handsome (better?) LSWR designs such as the smaller 4-4-0s were very similar indeed to his NBR and CR designs, so not sure how much Beattie/Adams heritage they had.
Peter Drummond worked for the HR and GSWR and his designs had a lot in common with his brother's.
On the other hand as far as I know 123 (the Caley single) was nothing to do with Drummond being a Neilsons in house design for an exhibition which the CR later bought.

 

Has anyone considered that the boiler wasn't from a T1 locomotive. If there isn't any identification on the boiler how do we know that it isn't an A12 locomotive.


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According to DL Bradley, the Southern built 9 Drummond pattern boilers at Brighton Works because there were no spare boilers for the A12 class, however he says that the first boiler went onto a T1 class and it is noted that this boiler was numbered 63, funny how the locomotive concerned was T1 class number 63, this T1 carried its new boiler right through to withdrawal and scrapping, the other 8 boilers went onto A12s and the first Loco number also became the boiler number, some of these boilers ended up on class T1 during their lives and 2 other T1s ended their lives with Drummond pattern boilers.
How were these boilers marked up, were they stencil painted or were they stamped, does the remaining boiler still carry its number? If we know the boiler number then this thread can be carried further on the debate of T1 or A12.
PS, I would like to see both classes by the way

 

I have recently purchased drawings of the following classes, A12 (2) O2 and T1, if these would be of any help I can be contacted by email.

 

I've found an on line reference ( https://secureweb1.essexcc.gov.uk/SeaxPAM/ViewCatalogue.aspx?ID=16 ) which suggests that what became the Boulton Paul Factory was originally an ironworks and wasn't converted into a wood factory until 1955. Assuming that's the earliest date when the boilers could have been purchased from BR that would seem to eliminate an A12 as a likely source.

 

I see where you are coming from about the A12 as the last ones were withdrawn in 1947 the last year of the Southern Railway prior to BR in 1948, however, I am going to place this information using Bradley's work.
Except for the first boiler which was numbered 63 as per being fitted to T1 number 63, the rest goes like this,

Boiler 542 fitted to 542 10/1925, subsequent use was No. 542 withdrawn 10/1928, boiler then fitted to No. 648 05/1931 to 08/1938, then on T1 No. 15 11/1939 to withdrawal 07/1944.

Boiler 544 fitted to 544 10/1926, No. 544 withdrawn 12/1929 boiler then fitted to No. 635 05/1931 to withdrawal 04/1935, then on to T1 No.11 06/1935 to 08/1938, No. 648 09/1938 to 07/1942, No. 624 07/1942 to 12/1943, No. 642 10/1944 to withdrawal 06/1947.

Boiler 622 fitted to 622 07/1926, No. 622 withdrawn 01/1936.

Boiler 632 fitted to 632 09/1926, Removed 07/1935, boiler then fitted to No. 652 02/1936 to 07/1941, T1 class No. 361 10/1941 to withdrawal 02/1947.

Boiler 636 fitted to 636 09/1927, Removed 12/1936, boiler then fitted to No 617 05/1937 until withdrawal 09/1938, No. 630 11/1938 to 09/1942, No. 609 02/1943 until withdrawal 04/1947.

Boiler 644 fitted to 644 11/1927, Removed 12/1934, boiler then fitted to No. 632 08/1935 until withdrawal 08/1937.

Boiler 645 fitted to 654 04/1926, No.645 Withdrawn 09/1933, boiler then fitted to No. 640 12/1933 until withdrawal 11/1937.

Boiler 652 fitted to 652 01/1926, Removed 01/1936, boiler then fitted to No. 636 01/1937 to 08/1940, No. 643 (date of fitting not shown) until withdrawal 07/1947.

As for the T1 class that had the boilers fitted to them during their lives are as follows,

Boiler 63 fitted to 63 04/1926, retained until withdrawal 02/1933.

Boiler 544 fitted to T1 No. 11 06/1935 to 08/1938, then refitted with Adams boiler withdrawn 07/1944.

Boiler 542 fitted to T1 No. 15 11/1939, retained until withdrawal 07/1944.

Boiler 632 fitted to T1 No. 361 10/1941, retained until withdrawal 02/1949.

The closest candidate to the rescued boiler would be boiler 632 thus coming from a T1 class member as being the last locomotive it was fitted to, none of Bradley's writings take into account of any of these boilers being taken into service stock as stationary boilers or where they were sold on for further usage.

 

Just found this thread while trying to research the A12.

One thing I have been unable to find for this pretty little 0-4-2 (which bears a remarkable resemblance to the 2-4-0 of the Great Eastern Railway, where Adams worked prior to the LSWR - now preserved at Bressingham) is comprehensive data, particularly locomotive and tender weight. If anyone here with access to the appropriate LSWR literature could add this to SEMG, Wikipedia etc...

 

I don't have the time right now to find out how to do either of the latter, but I can give you an idea of the weights. D.L. Bradley is your friend....

There were three variants of A12, original Nine Elms built series at 42t 7cwt (valves below cylinders), second Nine Elms series at 43t 8cwt (valves between cylinders) and the Neilson built series (similar to second Nine Elms) at 44t 3cwt. There were no fewer than 8 variants of tender found behind the Jubilees during their service lives (six of which were used from new), the lightest being 1950 gallon Beattie tenders at 23t 15cwt and the heaviest being 3300 gallon Adams tenders at 35t 17 cwt.

Hope that helps.

 

Excellent, thank you. I can get on Wikipedia and edit myself, but SEMG is not public - I hoped that the owner of that website is either a member of this forum or known to members of this forum.

While we're talking tender weights, do you have any info for the tenders that ran behind T9s, 700 Black Motors, H15 4-6-0s etc?

 

In the Bradley series of books on the LSWR Locomotives he states that William Adams had worked on both The North London Railway and the Great Eastern Railway, I think Adams came to the LSWR from the GER, I might be wrong, but at the moment my copy of that book is elsewhere not to hand.

 

I think there were two William Adams. The Adams Radial axle (used by the Adams of the LSWR, who wad indeed ex-NLR and GER) was invented by another unrelated William Adams....

 

Indeed - the Adams radial tanks were designed by William Adams the LSWR (and former NLR and GER) Locomotive superintendent, but the name comes because of the use of the radial axle invented by the unrelated William Bridges Adams. Interestingly William Adams of the LSWR was probably most notable in locomotive circles because of his invention and popularisation of an effective locomotive bogie. It is also notable that while William Adams was in charge of the NLR workshops in Bow, William Bridges Adams was running a private railway workshop - in Bow.

Tom

 

Going by dates of the other locos withdrawals, and the war austerity which necessitated their reuse, T1 No 15 seems the likely candidate

 

Was there any more progress on this? Or a way I can get stuck in?

I hate to think of that bare metal boiler sitting in the rain for so long!

 

The Ferrous oxide clad boiler is very visible at the Avon Valley. It is said to be in poor condition. I would think with where it is its unlikely ever to be rebuilt...

 

The F6 was the 2nd batch of T1s as outlined above. They became grouped in with the t1s from 1898. To correct the previous post, examples lasted until 1951

 

The T1s were latterly also allocated to Bournemouth and permitted on the S&D. Perhaps they mainly did locals to Blandford, but what's not to like about this elegant design?

 

I suspect your right, which is a shame. I’d happily get stuck in, even if it was just weather proofing the boiler to prevent further deterioration


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Maybe a future demonstration load for the Mid-Hants freight train? At least it will be seen.