Flying Scotsman

This is a logical next step. Then a repaint in to Apple Green for 2023.



Cicero at Haymarket I think. Google Images.

 

I suggest John that is mostly due to the continual hype rather than a livery matter.

 

Whilst I don't really disagree, the only valid "aesthetic judgement" in this case is the NRMs, based on prevailing policies. They may align with your own view, permitting a broader interpretation, but I hope the opportunity is taken to revert to arguably the most recognisable guise as 4472 with single chimney.

 

[QUOTE="26D_M, post: 2250188, member: 7797"...... but I hope the opportunity is taken to revert to arguably the most recognisable guise as 4472 with single chimney.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to disagree but if you want to see Scotsman on the mainline then it's got to be with the double chimney, improved draughting and smoke deflectors. These changes were made for a good reason - to improve the loco's performance and with heavier trains and ever tighter timings I don't see why anyone would consider downgrading it. Sure, if it's going to be restricted to 25mph trundles along preserved lines that's different and I don't see any reason why it couldn't go back to it's single chimney configuration. However I would guess that most enthusiasts would prefer to see Scotsman on the main line - can't have it both ways.
Ray.

 

Sorry to disagree but if you want to see Scotsman on the mainline then it's got to be with the double chimney, improved draughting and smoke deflectors. These changes were made for a good reason - to improve the loco's performance and with heavier trains and ever tighter timings I don't see why anyone would consider downgrading it. Sure, if it's going to be restricted to 25mph trundles along preserved lines that's different and I don't see any reason why it couldn't go back to it's single chimney configuration. However I would guess that most enthusiasts would prefer to see Scotsman on the main line - can't have it both ways.
Ray.[/QUOTE]

The irony in that of course is that if the operators ran shorter trains with more premium seats it s would be revenue neutral and the timings would be less of a concern.
We also wouldn’t have the farce of diesels doing half the work.

 

The irony in that of course is that if the operators ran shorter trains with more premium seats it s would be revenue neutral and the timings would be less of a concern.
We also wouldn’t have the farce of diesels doing half the work.[/QUOTE]
But that presumes that the demand is there to support that change of market, that marketing it in such a restrictive way is politically and ethically acceptable for part of the National Collection, and that the margins will work as you suggest.


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Sorry to disagree but if you want to see Scotsman on the mainline then it's got to be with the double chimney, improved draughting and smoke deflectors. These changes were made for a good reason - to improve the loco's performance and with heavier trains and ever tighter timings I don't see why anyone would consider downgrading it. Sure, if it's going to be restricted to 25mph trundles along preserved lines that's different and I don't see any reason why it couldn't go back to it's single chimney configuration. However I would guess that most enthusiasts would prefer to see Scotsman on the main line - can't have it both ways.
Ray.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but that argument doesn't hold water. Quite apart from 4472 having spent the majority of its mainline career in single chimney form (which I know the 'it must be BR as I remember it' brigade will dismiss as 'the past', probably while claiming that no steam loco should compromise with the railway of today by having diesel assistance!), there are plenty of other steam locos running on the mainline today - indeed, given the shortage of Class 8 power, probably the majority - which are of similar or lesser power than a single chimney A3. The Class in general, and very much 1472/4472/1-3/E103/60103 in particular, only ran in this form for a short proportion of their working lives and, in 60103's case, probably the least noteworthy portion.

The 'Flying Scotsman Brand' is Apple Green and 4472 and there is no reason why it can't be authentically returned to an appropriate condition for it to run like this other than cash - and, as 60163 has shown, a change of 'coat' can be very good at generating renewed interest and business.

Steven

 

But that presumes that the demand is there to support that change of market, that marketing it in such a restrictive way is politically and ethically acceptable for part of the National Collection, and that the margins will work as you suggest.


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Sorry, but everything railtour promoters tell us is that it the 'Premium' market that is strongest, no doubt in part due to the level of even 'non-premium' fares. All mainline trips are hugely restrictive in their market on cost ground, except the likes of The Jacobite or Scarborough Spa Express and I doubt you will see 4472/60103 on either of those!

Given that even preserved railway trips are charged at massive premiums, there seems to be no ethical considerations for the National Collection about making a chance to ride behind the loco bought with a massive public appeal affordable.....

Steven

 

You kept the last GWR loco that visited for 23 years, you can't have another one!

 

Show them a picture of Tornado then, they won't know the difference

 

If the NRM had painted her in LNER green, they would have nowhere to go for a livery change without a predictable uproar.

The fact she is BR Green, and has the option to go LNER green, gives them a second bite at the cherry marketing wise, and that is probably behind the decision.

As for the single chimney/lack of smoke deflectors, it would be the end of mainline steam for her, the changes are a safety led issue, and as such should be left.

 

DP

 

TP

 

Why would it be the end of mainline running. The deflectors are there as a safety requirement with the soft blast of the double chimney but that isn't an issue with the sharper blast of the single chimney.

 

I would be very interested to read on what the safety led issue is with regards the fitting of single chimney equipment, given the sheer number of locomotives out there which do not have double blastpipes and do perfectly well on the mainline (castles, halls, black fives, 8Fs, B1s, Brits, Merchant Navy/BoB/WC to name but a few).

If you are referring to drifting smoke, then that's a double chimney issue, fixed with the witte deflectors somewhat. Drifting smoke - at least on the Gresley Pacifics - was less of a problem with a single blastpipe.

I do feel sometimes we enthusiasts over egg the pudding somewhat...

 

I’d send them the lot.

 

I have to disagree again, the loco still does what it says on the tin, haul passenger trains perhaps not in the style it once did but each of those coaches contains passengers intending to arrive somewhere, the fact that the journey itself is the chief attraction is neither here nor there.

 

The Bulleids are not single blastpipe. They have Lemaître multiple jet blastpipes.

 

Sorry to disagree but if you want to see Scotsman on the mainline then it's got to be with the double chimney, improved draughting and smoke deflectors. These changes were made for a good reason - to improve the loco's performance and with heavier trains and ever tighter timings I don't see why anyone would consider downgrading it. Sure, if it's going to be restricted to 25mph trundles along preserved lines that's different and I don't see any reason why it couldn't go back to it's single chimney configuration. However I would guess that most enthusiasts would prefer to see Scotsman on the main line - can't have it both ways.
Ray.[/QUOTE]I did allude to the mainline angle upthread. Whilst if it has a double chimney the deflectors might be mandatory, is the double chimney itself really a precondition of it being operated on the mainline? I find that unlikely, given the performance losses would not be so acute for todays work, it operated perfectly well in that form for many years and other similarly sized locos have single chimneys, including a King which was "detuned" even though a mainline career was planned.
If the double chimney remains, so must the BR green, I expect.

 

Of course an SSE type operation was envisaged as one of the usages for the A3 when it was acquired by NRM.