Rother Valley Railway

Thanks for explaining how Bodiam is signalled presently. And indeed the NG examples. However, a Stop Board is a form of signal, and a train staff and ground frames form part of a signalling system. So it is not unsignalled, even today.

If Bodiam is going to retain a loop and siding and continue to operate them via ground frames locked by the staff, that is fair enough, but it does mean that the loop can't be used for passing trains. Maybe that's OK, if all it is for is running round trains which aren't going through the section, or storing wagons in. But to be truly 'unsignalled' it would have to be reduced to a halt on plain line.

 

Before preservation there wasn’t a loop at Bodiam although there was a siding where the loop is now with the points (I think) at the Robertsbridge end. If a new loop is proposed near Junction Road (there was originally a siding there too) I guess Bodiam could be restored closer to it’s original layout (albeit with a rather longer platform).

 

It would need to retain the loop, as the proposal is that certain trains will only run to Bodiam. I don't think much at all will change if the railway is extended.

 

That’s interesting- from which end of the line?

 

I hope he don't mean Tenterden to Bodiam, Because the extended service will need at least two train sets, one starting at either end, hopefully steam hauled, I can see a fill in DMU service running in between the steam services as far as Bodiam for the castle, it would have to be an DMU, or the Railcar, simply because of the need to ensure a fast turn round .

 

I think that you are splitting hairs to support your argument with that. A stop board is an instruction to the driver to stop and additionally always gives further instructions. It does not control the train movement as signals do. The train movements are controlled by handsignals given by those operating the ground frame and level crossing or even the guard giving the right away. They are all signals but no one would call them a signalling system. The train staff is an authority to the driver to occupy a section of line and again does not control movements.

 

Since you are splitting hairs over a stop board being technically a signal when I think most people would probably use unsignalled to mean "without fixed signals capable of showing at least two aspects (stop or proceed) which are interlocked with any associated points and controlled from a position where both point and signal operation is grouped together ", I will split hairs with the statement that the loop cannot be used for passing trains because the points are controlled by lever frames that are locked by the staff. This is nonsense and there are a number of examples where trains are passed using just such a system.

 

I believe that, due to some of the restrictions imposed on the potential A21 crossing, it is envisaged that the Wealden Pullman evening dining train would be Tenterden to Bodiam only. The loco would therefore need to be able to run round. In addition, I do not think that the Santa Special trains will run to Robertsbridge, as they don't even run to Bodiam now!

 

The passsing loop does not need to be in the station. At Rolvenden there is only one platform and trains pass outside the station. I am sure something similar could be organised. Ground frames could be used as the Facing Point Lock is only needed in one direction

 

If you're crossing trains, both ends need FPL's, at least for the direction of travel. HMRI used to require such movements to be controlled from a single ground frame/box but that restriction seems to have gone by the board in recent years.

 

The department of transport could/might impose the amount of crossings allowed per day across the A21 ie rush hour crossings, and would curtail a lot of the timetable.

 

From memory, such proposed restrictions/operation limitations were part of the planning proposal from the railway, presumably to both pre-empt expected opposition from certain quarters and to demonstrate that such matters were already being considered by the promoters.

 

Ihad to check the signal box diagrams - for a move from Kidderminster to Bewdley the crossover to the dowm main only has a FPL in the down direction, hence up trains cant use P1

 

If you mean P1 at Bewdley, Dave, then as you know that is a bit of a special case as in signalling terms it's not a crossing loop - it's a short section of track operated under Absolute Block regs. In other words, the lack of FPLs (there's the Down Yard exit points too) is not the only thing preventing an Up train departing from P2 - there is also the signals and the signalling regulations to consider.

In general, Bewdley is a very interesting place for a signalling enthusiast but such an unusual one (at least nowadays) that it's not really a good exemplar. Not many stations have one platform inside Station Limits but two more outside Station Limits! Nor do many places work using token regulations but without any tokens, or still have Visual Block Regs in the rulebook.

Edit to add: stations on single lines with a box at each end were very common at one time; Bewdley is only unusual in modern times. Some stations in Scotland would have two boxes, one signalman and a bicycle! (and there is provision in the SVR rules to work Bewdley like that if required under some circumstances)

 

Yes you are right, it can, but not easily. If we assume that both staffs lock the points for through running on the platform line, then you need stop boards sufficiently far from the loop to protect the other train in the platform, following which someone has to walk to the ground frame to let the train into the loop. A bit of a faff.

And as for whether stop boards are signals, yes they most certainly are as are fixed distants, fixed red lights and all manner of other things only capable of displaying one thing. For what it’s worth, I spend a good deal of my professional life on a signal sighting committee, so I think I should know.

Edit:
Although I should add, there is of course usually a distinction made between “signals, signs and indicators” and had the post which triggered my original comment said “there aren’t going to be any signals” that would have conveyed a different meaning from what was actually written which was that it would be “unsignalled”. Far from splitting hairs, I genuinely thought you meant something quite different from what you actually meant.

 

I should have clarified up pass canot leave platform 1 in the up direction, ECS can. Checked and there is an FPL on the down main to down yard points.

Iagree Bewdley is probably not a good example as the signalling is a bit odd being still laid out for a 4 way junction right hand drive with the p2 up starters being the other side of the down main.

Agreed the sequence of signals is unique. BS distant, BS home, BS inner homes bracket (no provision to enter p2) Home for p1 is over slotted BN distant. BN home. BN platform starters (still a main aspect for Clearbury) BN Down section signal with warning board " start of token section" as this is the first place the loco crew will have received a token since leaving Kidder

I could elaborate but that is best under the svrr thread and will stop this thread drift

 

Have you operated a railway using this type of system? Because in my experience it is considerably less "faff" than you are implying and very practical depending on train frequency. With a blockman at the passing loop (and providing the distance between ground frames is not excessive) I do not think it is much more time consuming than a system with a signal box, signals and token instruments. If the loop is operated by the train crew it is also not so time consuming provided the train is not single manned.

 

I meant the points at the North end of the Down Yard, BN24A. They do not have an FPL and would be facing for an UP move.

Yes indeed!

 

Even the present high season timetable, if extended to Robertsbridge, there'd only be 10 crossings a day (5 round trips). It's why there was a lot of rubbishing of the local MP and land owner who seemed to be under the impression there'd be dozens of movements an hour or some such.

 

The local MP is on the side of the railway. The MP objecting was Amber Rudd, who is MP for Hastings. Never mind, her seat is a marginal, and an election can't be far away....