2999: Lady of Legend

There's a degree of assumption (dare I say unwitting arrogance?) here that opinions expressed on NatPres actually matter to anyone involved?

Something I learned very early on in the days of internet forums - and, again, as social media came into widespread use - with regards to things that I am hands-on and passionate about, was that the opinions expressed on both of the aforementioned by people who actually get their hands dirty are in a tiny minority*. The vast majority come from those who think - and really, really like to tell people - that they know best, but who actually have very little (if any) experience of life at the sharp end of their area of interest.

Thus I would suspect that those involved in the Saint project are unlikely to even read the opinions on NatPres. And even if they do, they are unlikely to be disheartened by them. When it comes to opinions expressed on the internet, the saying involving wheat and chaff springs readily to mind.

(*Before anyone yells at me, note I say 'a minority', NOT 'none'!)

 

nowhere enough of them imho

 

Yeah, damn those comfortable cabs with well laid-out controls, easily accessible motion, mechanical lubricators, rocking grates, paired water gauges - whatever was Riddles thinking moving so far from what the master had set out as the template to be followed?

Tom

 

and real superheat

 

I believe many here are like me; admittedly not getting our hands dirty (though we do contribute cash to various projects) but not acting as know-alls either. We offer information if we happen to possess it and we ask questions.

 

A Hall with bigger wheels.
It is a tragedy that many renovation and a few newbuilds will not run on mainlines.
It would be maddingly interesting to see how they compared to other locomotives under controlled mainline tests.
It would not be nessecary to go to border of envelope and stress old iron to much.
3000lbs coal per hour as single union-member fireman limit and speeds between 30 and 60 mph would allow construction of efficiency maps extrapolated to the limits of the BR test reports.
There are V2,Hall,BR standards 4,5,7 and 8,BB and MN reports.
Tests of this kind could liberate some cash from me.

 

And a Deltic is just a 37 with a bigger power unit, and Nirvana are just a 90's version of The Pixies, @ Hermod there was a Dynomoter Car that ran behind 71000 during the early 1990's that could be possibly be used? ( Have a word with West Coast, You want to see your comparison trials, you put up the cash, then it'll happen) It's not a tragedy that various new builds won't go line, some will, some won't as ever money comes into play.

 

This is a very unworthy, disrespectful and untrue comment to all those hard-working enthusiast/ volunteers giving of their spare time to preserve the immense amount of railway history in Britain. No matter how "productive" they working or which skills they have, all have vital role.

This is like the same old story about "our times lazy youngsters" told by some who means everything was better before..

Nothing is more easily as being a passive spectactor to something without get their one hands dirty.

Knut

 

Oh I’m sorry - that makes it all okay then?

Couldn’t we just have some civility? Why is that so difficult? Yes - even on the Internet!

If you wouldn’t express views in the pub to a member of the public in the manner you write on the Internet, why say it? (Not aiming that specifically at you - talking generally about people).

Let the Saint team have their moment in the sun. It’s well earned.

 

I don’t think this is a fair interpretation of what is actually being said.

I think the point being made (which is correct) is that we do not currently have a glut of volunteers for which there are many factors, some of which are economic, others generational (age of retirement disappearing over the hill for youngest generations) and the railway heritage industry does have to address a very different working environment to that it had when it started.

I look around at the hard working volunteers I know and there’s one thing they all share - they have limited downtime for rest. Fatigue management is not just buzzwords - remembering Clapham today, it strikes me that I know at least one railway where everyone works very hard - but at what cost to their health?

And that is, I’m afraid, down to a spiral downwards of volunteer and part time numbers.

 

I for one am glad to see a Saint, its been a long time coming. And yes I do regard her as a Saint and not a butchered Hall as some would prefer. Well done Didcot!

 

To be fair to @ross, I don't think he meant his comment in a derogatory way. If you took a crude measure of productivity as, say "number of non-working locos returned to working order per unit time" then undoubtedly productivity now is lower. That's not a slur on today's volunteers (and paid staff) but reflects all sorts of factors: many overhauls now are of an unprecedentedly high complexity (more or less complete boiler replacements; entirely new frames and so on are being produced for locos that have previously run in preservation); demographic factors mean many volunteers can give fewer hours overall to their hobby; craft skills are less widely taught, so there is a steeper learning curve for people wishing to get involved; there is a much diminished pool of ex-BR staff who knew how to do things from their working lives etc. None of which is to decry those working today, while recognising that loco restoration has become more challenging.

Probably the one real advance over the 1970s / 1980s (*) is that many railways now have much better workshop facilities. But the flip side of that is the pressure on running fleets, which mean that projects - especially long-term ones - have to be fitted in amongst what may be much higher priority jobs on keeping the core fleet available to run the service.

(*) apart from some interesting changes in manufacturing techniques like poly patterns, laser cutting of metal etc, which make external production of components cheaper in some cases

Tom

 

I was going to reply to this saying as a younger volunteer who normally is quite happy to jump down posters' throats I don't think that's what was being said, but others have already been there.

It is interesting to compare restorations then and now though, as there's a lot to it. First of all, back then there was more residual life left in original components than there is now, so you could get away with doing less during an overhaul. Then on the flipside, as Tom says, workshop facilities are better now than they were back then. On the other hand we have fewer and fewer engineers both in general, and specifically with a knowledge of steam locomotives. Then again, with the introduction of CAD/CAM not only does this potentially make things easier, it's something that's perhaps better understood by today's generation of engineers than yesterday's.

 

I do not understand how you have inferred a lack of respect from my words, nor do I see how you dare accuse me of lying. It may be that you don't agree with my interpretation of the facts, but I am not a liar.

Look how work is done today. Less labourers, more machinery. More health and safety legislation, less accidents. More planning and management, less flexibility. But it all means more capital, and less usable industrial skills.The world is much changed, which is why you can't (because it is unfair) to attempt to compare human productivity in two very different eras.

I made no mention of youngsters, lazy or otherwise.

As to why I don't volunteer, my last complete day off was in 2015, (livestock have to be fed and tended) which makes it tricky to commit time. I do contribute as much financially as my wife and the tax man will allow so not quite passive either.

 

Sir, I have probably misunderstood your views. Internet isn`t an easy place of conversation. I`m very sorry and have to apologise for my overreacted response.

Knut

 

Can’t say fairer than that. Good man.

 

Accuracy please. A Deltic is just a 37 with two smaller power units!

 

Reading this thread makes Brexit seem like a piece of cake!

 

You know, it`s all about steam ,so it`s important to keep up the pressure.