West Somerset Railway General Discussion

And if you decided to use artitic licence to flatter the person involved that could also be said to

Render a slender tender tender fender bender mender lender sender blender.

 

The HLF has put money into engines in the past and if the new owner went this way especially the WSRA one thing they use to help to try to get the funding was that it was a Taunton based engine and it worked the line in BR days so it would be working in authentic place and not just another engine with no connection with the line.

 

The suggestion that 4110Ltd. does not have a track record is, of course, quite correct. What should not be overlooked, or denigrated, is the people involved in 4110 Ltd. It appears that they are all deeply involved, or have been until recently, in working on and supporting the railway both financially plus their free labour and hard work. I believe they have a good track record.

 

I agree the loco might best be safeguarded by charity ownership and this kind of thing might be a good future role for the WSRA.

However the reaction of at least some of the 4110 Ltd. donors is quite understandable. Perhaps I’m wrong but it appears the plc may have encouraged them to raise donations and form a company- and then pulled the rug at the very moment of success. The tone of the joint statement also implies the WSRA and plc simply assume the already pledged funds should be turned over to them.

This saga reads as if both organisations are taking their donors and volunteers for granted. Heritage railway managers should never do that.

 

Heritage railways are as much about people as locos, p-way etc. and I think we should just spare a thought for the group of MD loco department and how they might feel today regarding the developments on 4110.

As I understand it the plc felt the need to sell some of the family silver to increase their working capital, to the extent they were prepared to see 4110 leave the WSR. The WSRA expressed the view they couldn't afford the £100K price tag. A small group of MD loco members with a wealth of experience in restoring and operating steam locos, including the vastly experienced recently retired CME, stepped up to the plate. In a matter of days they raised pledges in excess of the required amount, and also incurred the costs of setting up a ltd company as the vehicle to own the loco. This doesn't just happen it took a good deal of time and effort to achieve this.

On a personal note I admired their "Can do" attitude, and felt that I could pledge a small amount. This is despite the fact that being in my dotage it is very unlikely I shall see 4110 in steam, whoever owns it, but at least I would have a piece of paper to give to my grandsons and say they own a very small piece of British heritage.

Now the plc and WSRA are saying effectively ; thanks guys for all you have done and you can now hand it all over to us from now on. Whatever the rights and wrongs are re tax, gift aid etc. I just wonder how these guys, who have gone were others have feared to tread, feel. It may be they say well we have done what we set out to achieve i.e. keep 4110 on the WSR, or they may feel rather hard done by. Perhaps we should just reflect if we were in there position how we might react. It is interesting to note that they do not feel they can support the joint PLC & WSRA statement.

As for pledges, folks will make their own mind up. some will take the wider view and sent heir hard earnt money to the WSRA and some will as they say in a certain TV programme " sorry I shan't be investing ; I'm out". My pledge - my business.

Overall this episode, which I guess has legs still is not WSR's finest hour.

 

This thread is a good/bad as any brexit debate!!!!!

 

It seems to me as an outsider that as far as this episode is concerned, it is the WSR plc which has led to the confusion (to put it charitably).

After seemingly agreeing to sell it to the 4110 group, now, after much time, effort and some expense has been incurred, they seem to have made a different agreement with the WSRA.

This latter agreement seems, with hindsight, to be the best one, but after making the first one, it smacks of bad faith and/or bad decision making to make a subsequent deal with the WSRA, potentially putting the loco's future on the WSR at risk.

I can't offer any suggestions as to the best way forward, but merely express my disappointment at what seems yet another own goal in the ongoing Somerset Saga.

Sad.

 

Surely the WSRA has always been a charity

 

I have read the last few pages with a sense of bewilderment coupled with an innate sadness !

May I in an attempt to anticipate the gainsayers state I have no more knowledge than that
available via Mr Edge's website.

I assume that the WSRA has the wherewithal to produce £100K. The resume of their last
Trustee's meeting suggested that £20K was the most they could offer to help the PLC
in their (PLC) current plight (see Mr Edge's site). However the WSRA have assets that
might be transferable ( CC rules/advice permitting ?) to the PLC and generate a revenue
stream to the PLC.

Therefore I imagine the PLC/WSRA transfer of 4110 is a done deal ?

So where does this leave those who have pledged to '4110 ltd' ?

Obviously if they have an antipathy to the WSRA they will presumably not honour
their pledges ? However if the restoration of 4110 is their overriding motivation how
can they help ?

The WSRA needs to state any donations to 4110 should be held for the
restoration of 4110 alone, and where applicable gift aid is sort. Much or
all of the 'pledged' £100K ' would make an excellent start to obtaining
£500K to restore 4110 ( if for nothing else, as 'match funding')

The WSRA has slumbered wrt fund raising since it lost its 'fund raising
Trustee' some 18 months past. This could give it a 'shot in the arm' , even
a kick up the proverbial !

Michael Rowe

 

On a personal note I admired their "Can do" attitude, and felt that I could pledge a small amount. This is despite the fact that being in my dotage it is very unlikely I shall see 4110 in steam, whoever owns it, but at least I would have a piece of paper to give to my grandsons and say they own a very small piece of British heritage.

I think that this is a key point which is being missed by those who are banging on about the Gift Aid advantages of donating to a charity rather than buying shares. People want to feel a sense of ownership and the possession of something to pass on to children and granchildren is a powerful driver. It's certainly been a factor in my (not inconsiderable) purchases of shares in heritage railways and locomotives.

 

Well said @snappertim in post # 15647. I've been trying to find words to describe how I feel, but you have said it better than I ever could.

The comparison with Brexit is, I feel, compelling. I cast my vote, or in this case made a pledge, expecting a particular outcome. It now seems that a totally different outcome may be the result.

I applaud the people who formed 4110 Ltd. If they manage to purchase the locomotive then I shall honour, and probably increase, my promise of investment.

If the WSRA secure the purchase, then my cheque remains firmly in my pocket.

Stef.

 

Yeh but whose charity.

 

Oh boy ! You couldn't be more wrong. Pledges are exactly that, pledges. What reasons do you have to suggest that, should 4110 Ltd gain ownership , supporters would drift off into the ether. There may well be some that fall by the wayside naturally. My only interest in 4110 is that she was once a 84H Wellington (Salop) loco, my home town. I have not yet committed my support to 4110 because you can never tell what is going to happen next in West Somerset, and I considered that the setting up of 4110 Ltd would not be the end of the story. It is my personal view that WSRA will do little or nothing with 4110 should they gain ownership. As I have said before, WSRA does not have a good track record with the restoration of locomotives, and only a marginally better record with locomotive ownership.

 

While reiterating this would undoubtedly be a good idea, the WSRA doesn't 'need' to state it - Charity Law on 'Restricted Funds' requires it.

What may assist would be the WSRA stating that the funds will be held in a separate account and each donor would be asked whether they wanted the funds returning or using elsewhere in the event that the purchase doesn't proceed (again, pretty much Charity law on this latter point but worth explaining).

Steven

 

WSR plc have played WSRA knowing they had the funds to assist the financial problems but were reluctant to cough up, using 4110 as a pawn the WSRA are now prepared to bail out the plc, we can hope that the cash they are currently handing over secures the WSR for the future. Seems the saga is over.

 

Pledges are indeed pledges - not hard cash, but I would expect the vast majority made now will be honoured.

But the point I am making is such a magnificent effort now, against a deadline, does not mean that the same supporters can even afford to put in 5 times as much over the next 3 years. People have no doubt dug deep to help out in this emergency, but that doesn't mean their pockets are 6 times as deep overall! Yes, additional supporters may come along and others will 'fall by the wayside'.

I suspect neither you nor I have any idea how many people the £120,000 pledged represents - if all active members of Minehead MPD, then I suspect we are talking in 10s rather than 100s. Even is we say 100, that is £1,200 now each and another £6,000 each over the next 3 to 5 years (on your scenario, not any proposal I have heard from 4110 Ltd).

That seems a bit of an ask!

However, as I have stressed, 4110 Ltd have NOT committed to anything like a rapid restoration. Hence, your comparison of the 2 routes is based on an assumption unsupported by anything said by either party.

Steven

 

Shouldn't the WSRA be asking their Members for their views about the Charity taking on the ownership of a another inoperable locomotive for £100k ? WSRA members, what do you think ? After all, it's your money they are using.

 

Sagas are perpetual in West Somerset...

 

Trying to look at the big picture, I see no problem with using the WSRA as a tax efficient method of fund raising for the 'one railway'. However I understand that initially the PLC announced it was selling 4110 to raise working capital (has there been a more detailed explanation of the purpose than that?). It now appears that the PLC proposes to raise the money for the same purposes more tax efficiently through the WSRA, a byproduct of which is that ownership of 4110 will pass from one to the other. If the purpose for which the funds are being raised is something that the WSRA can support as a charity (and if it isn't then they shouldn't be doing the deal), why cannot the funds be raised openly for that purpose?

In comparison, the SVR's Charitable Trust is appealing directly for funds for Falling Sands - the PLC doesn't need to sell 45110 to the Charitable Trust with people making donations to buy 45110 instead.

 

Unfortunately I think this is a byproduct of the railway's general inability to do significant fundraising. Asking for £100k in a little over a month for non-specific reasons is probably much harder than raising that sum to "save a loco".