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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    There is a problem with all change processes and that is to answer the question "change to what?"

    The trustee's of the WSRA have been addressing this question in the recent past. Given the WSRA is a supporting organisation it has to discuss the question with the entity it supports. In recent months the WSRA has been able to reach agreement with the WSR plc about roles and responsibilities going forward. These will, many people will be glad to know, follow the recommendations laid out in the Coombes report.
    I am confident that many of you who post here could have done all of this faster and better than the current incumbents. You would have secured far more that the ~£150,000 the WSRA raised last year, which BTW included supporting the wagon restoration group. So I feel I must alert all of you to the opportunity to become a trustee of the WSRA. The AGM will be an agenda topic at today's trustee meeting where the date and time will be finalised. Keep your eyes peeled for further news. I suppose I should mention that to be a trustee you need to be a WSRA member.
    The whole point of the WSRA is that it is a member led support organisation as well as being a charity. Part of its role is to allow volunteers and supporters of the railway to have a democratic voice about how best to support the railway. The members have the opportunity to choose the trustees and a third of trustees must retire in rotation each year.
    I will not lie to you it is a tough job, tougher and more time consuming if you aspire to the chairmanship. Even as vice chair it occupies me in excess of a full working days per week. In the operating season when I volunteer 2 days a week on average it means the railway gets the bulk of my time. However we need people who love and care for the railway to step up and this forum seems to be a place to canvas.
    Ah, but you live too far away, well I am about to set out from home for the 90 mile drive to the meetings I need to attend for the WSRA today and tomorrow (and no - I don't claim expenses before anybody asks).

    I will correct one other thing before I sign off. The next portion of work on 4561 has been approved by the trustees because we (a) have the funds, (b) it's what WSRA members want and (c) it meets the railways locomotive plan. It's not the only work recently approved there is a lot going on with rolling stock as well to be ready for the new operating season. The work would go faster with more volunteers and there is a warm welcome awaiting you at Williton if you fancy rolling up your sleeves and getting stuck in.

    Those wishing further details about how they can get involved and help are welcome to contact me privately.
     
  2. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    To me if the WSRA is successful in acquiring 4110 and then having 3 engines they should set up a engine group who will report to the WSRA board who are say 80% responsible for these engines and what order they are restored in etc and, having a dedicated group they will have a more of a push for fund raising for these engines as they will feel more like the engines are their babies and the WSRA having too many iron in the fire and not looked after so well as they could be. (The last comment isn't saying the WSRA can't do it all) Yes any money raised will go through the WSRA so any gift aid can be reclaimed on this money and put in the engine fund account. So the group will be much more like the wagon group on the railway.
     
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  3. patriarch

    patriarch New Member

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    I did not say that restoration could not be achieved under the WSRA umbrella.But, 4110 would likely be number 3 in the WSRA's list of inoperable locomotives, and we are told that even the restoration of 4561 is 'stalled' due to the lack of funds. I'm sure I read somewhere that 7821 requires £250k to £300k. Does it really seem likely to you that the WSRA either can, or really wants to, raise all this cash to restore locomotives?
     
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  4. patriarch

    patriarch New Member

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  5. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That feels like rather a leading question, assuming that the WSRA neither can, nor has the will to restore locomotives.

    That appears to me to be a position of fundamental mistrust, somewhat undermined by @aldfort's post #15821 above, and assuming that the WSRA will continue to live down to the worst features of it's reputation.

    You are entirely at liberty to take the view that restoration of 4110 is your main priority, and that a specific organisation for that purpose is the best way to achieve that. If so, I have to say that this does not come across except as denigration of the WSRA - I trust that is just my misreading of your posts. I'd also like to see why you believe that this early momentum should be so sustainable and effective in raising the multiple required to restore 4110, and so much more effectively so than under a charitable umbrella that could make a significant difference to the amount of money reaching 4110.

    For this outsider looking in, I see welcome progress on bringing the WSR family together, undermined by poor communication. I can't say that I see this poor communication as symptomatic of anything other than the challenges of a volunteer run organisation trying to work at speed.
     
  6. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    A supporting charity is not simply a cheque book for the commercial operator to write cheques to itself - if you want that sort of situation, then your need a total overhaul of structure (and a very understanding membership that will donate to running costs - or a gifted fund raising team that can convince them this is a good thing to do!)

    A major part of the problem with trying to operate the structure the West Somerset have is that WSRplc and their supporters appear to have seen any WSRA cash as 'theirs' and then get upset when it isn't just handed over. It sounds from @aldfort and @Robin Moira White's posts that there is good discussion between the two organisations as to how help can be readily afforded. Surely a case of 'watch this space' and, as @aldfort says - offer yourself as a Trustee if you want to see things done 'better'!

    I sense a lot of 'I've taken a position and now need to come up with reasons for holding it against inconvenient facts people keep revealing' - which is, of course, an argument for openness as soon as possible. Saldy, situation that are 'live' can develop so that exactly what has happened may only be clear after a short delay (and why after a further delay!)

    Steven
     
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  7. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Well-Known Member

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    So Tom are you suggesting that the WSRA is the wrong vehicle for the Restoration of 4110?
     
  8. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    If your jaundiced opinion of the true state of relations on the WSR is based mainly on what you read here then it not a true picture. Of course ther are differences as there will be in any organisation. The difference here is there are still a lot of ner do well people whose only pleasure in life is to ruin the good works of the large majority. As far are the choice between a separate group and the WSRA my concern is that the the WSRA has an appalling record at restoring the locos they already own. I had hoped that once the ex 6+1 had been evected real push to fund raise would start. Sadly for whatever reason I feel the WSRA has failed in their key objectives. Of course the parlous state of the finances left are a big drawback but where is the big fund raising effort. Like where is the WSR PLC fund raising effort. Other railways can do it why not this one. I think poor leadership is the root cause. So tothe two Chairman I say get on with raising money. Personally I have resigned from all WSR organisations though I will remain a shareholder for the time being. Nevertheless I will donate to a credible cause funds permitting which they don’t at present. To the moaners I say shut the f*** up.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Just thinking.... There are many differing set-ups amongst the heritage railway movement but every heritage railway that I can think of which relies on volunteers requires those volunteers to be a member of the supporting organisation. The WSR seems to be unique in that you don't have to be such a member, just a volunteer. I get the impression that the core body of anti-WSRA people come from the body of volunteers that are simply 'volunteers'. What would happen if the WSR plc determined that, to volunteer, you had to be a member of the WSRA? Would these independent volunteers disappear or would they join and, by doing so, boost the asset base of the Association, both financially and in numbers and help create the 'one railway' vision.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Essentially yes.

    The current proposal is for one of two competing groups to buy the loco to provide the plc with funds in the short term, while maintaining the loco on the railway. Depending which of those two groups is successful, the value to the railway as a whole of the purchase price varies (i.e. with or without gift aid) and the security of the loco actually remaining on the railway varies. My personal view is that both factors favour the WSRA bid, but neither bid in practice uses the money available to improve the WSR loco situation, which presumably those pledging money would wish to see.

    So the alternative: those who have pledged the £120k pay it to the WSRA, who put it in a restricted fund with the purpose of loco restoration of WSR core fleet locos. The WSRA recover Gift Aid where possible, increasing the value. They then use the money to grant fund the WSR plc to carry out loco restoration, giving an immediate cash boost to the WSR plc finances; the plc in exchange undertake not to sell the loco to anyone.

    Result: loco stays on the railway, with continued ownership by the PLC; PLC get a rapid boost to their funds; WSRA meet their charitable objectives; the £120k pledged actually does something useful in advancing loco restoration. You could do it now using the existing loco restoration fund, except that although 4110 is included, it is unlikely that workshop capacity would allow the plc to start spending money on it now, so putting it in that fund doesn't help the immediate cash flow. So if you have a new restricted fund to encompass all core fleet locos, the WSRA could immediately provide a grant to the plc to continue the restoration of the current locos in the works, i.e. provide an immediate financial boost against current spend. The WSRA finances aren't jeopardised because in effect they pay out as a grant only as much money as they get in, i.e. it is cost-neutral to them beyond the necessary oversight and scrutiny.

    The bottom line is about means and ends. If the desired ends are (1) maintain the security of the loco (2) provide a cash boost to the plc (3) enhance the overall loco situation, then my scheme achieves all of those. If means are more important, carry on arguing.

    Tom
     
  11. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Frankly, yes.

    As was announced a short while ago (but hasn’t got s mention by the moaners) the WSRA led on a successful bid to the Hinkley C fund by the Railway for community cohesion work in the sum of £96,700. The appointment of the relevant individual leading that work will, hopefully be announced shortly. We have employed a professional fundraiser and we are in the process, with the wholehearted co-operation of the WSR plc, of getting the WSRA focussed and aligned to its proper tasks as the Coombes Report called on us to do. A number of other initiatives will be announced at the proper time.

    Speaking personally, I sit on a number of grant-making bodies and have assisted other heritage railways with applications. To such bodies. I am awaiting news today of the result of an application for a high 5-figure sum elsewhere in the country.

    Real co-operative working is hard work but potentially very very rewarding. It does require joined-up thinking and working.

    Robin
     
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  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I find your position entirely respectable, and the “glass half empty” view in opposition to my half full view.

    The difference, I think, is of timing. I see green shoots of recovery and something positive in the joint working of plc and association; you express a certain despair at the lack of progress.

    As for STFU advice, I think better that if there is nothing positive to say, say nothing. Views will differ on the right way to see 4110 restored; I’ve read much on here in favour of or against the WSRA approach, but little positive for the independent 4110 structure except in opposition to a WSRA led approach. That tone concerns me.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Dennis John Brooks

    Dennis John Brooks Member

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    Loll
    Sir, you appear to ask me a question & then go on to answer it yourself regarding WSRA engines, as to my affiliations, that is personal which I feel a lot of other people are beginning to perceive.

    DJB.
     
  14. snappertim

    snappertim New Member

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    So we now know there is only one deal in town [Minehead] that 4110 can only be sold to WSRA . So the ball is firmly in WSRA's court to win over hearts, and preferably hearts and minds of folk to raise around £100K. I assume that the timescale is by the end of January which seemed to be the deadline for gwr4110 ltd. I hope the association succeed otherwise, under the policy of the PLC as of 11th January 2019, the locomotive will be sold off elsewhere.

    I fully understand the new policy and has considerable merit, but bearing in mind that the promotors of 4110 ltd have been discussing their plans with PLC since June 2018, I have to say I find this a bit late in the day and a trifle dogmatic. Sorry.

    It seems to me that a possible solution in this instance, for the PLC, WSRA and GWR4110lLtd be shut in a room to thrash out a sensible compromise whereby the pledges to gwr4110ltd are honored but the company's Memo & Arts include the following

    1. The Board should always have a representative from the PLC & WSRA on it
    2. No entity shall have a shareholding in excess of [say] 20%
    3. The locomotive shall be WSR based and for the sole benefit of WSR
    4. Any sale of the locomotive should ensure the PLCand/or WSRA to have first refusal

    I really don't buy the argument that this is all too complicated especially if it attracts new money onto WSR. The caveat is that I am not a lawyer, corporate or barrack room, and no doubt the likes of Steven will shoot me down on the detail. But where there is a will there is a way.

    As a postscript I would just say that in the 1980's I instigated both the Norwegian Locomotive Trust and the Terrier Trust on the K & ESR which as far as I know are still helping the then cash strapped Tenterden Railway Co.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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  15. daveb

    daveb Member

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    Rightly or wrongly, I get that impression too. To an extent there is a self-fulfilling prophesy here - "I will not support the WSRA because they have a poor reputation restoring/overhauling locomotives, which is partly to do with lack of funds caused by people like me not supporting them."
     
  16. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I take it therefore my understanding is correct - that neither of the two locomotives the WSRA own are actually in 'scrapyard' condition.

    My apologies for perhaps clouding the issue with my latter comment, which was perhaps uncalled for. The point I was seeking to test was whether you pre-existing view of the WSRA was why you considered them an unsuitable owner for 4110.

    The reality appears to this outsider to be that neither potential West Somerset Railway owner has firm plans, not least funding, for the rapid overhaul of the locomotive, and indeed my understanding was that it was not an immediate priority for WSRplc even when the loco was bought. It was a strategic purchase. The appeal to retain it on the West Somerset railway appeared to begin from the same basis and I am unsure as to whether officially either potential purchaser has made 'immediate restoration' part of their 'bid'. It may even be seen that a risk of changed focus from part finished locomotives (e.g 9351) to 4110 would be seen as a negative outcome by WSRplc.

    @Robin Moira White has reminded us that Bob Meanley has been appointed as consultant CME and is working on an overall locomotive strategy. I would suggest order and priority of restoration will be the core output of that document and rightly so. Any other approach risks spreading resources (manpower and cash) around several projects with the result than none move forward as rapidly as is required (as has been discussed in respect of another organisation elsewhere on here very recently). Sadly, emotive though steam locomotives are to many, decisions on which is restored first need to be made by the head and not the heart and then the soundly reasoned plan explained to gain the necessary buy in from potential workforce and funders.

    Steven
     
  17. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    I m very pleased to be reminded of the £96,700 though this whilst welcome is pretty small beer in heritage railway terms. Between them the WSR and WSRA need to be looking at raising at least £3 million between them just to restore the four locos and some much needed infrastructure work. Not easy but not impossible. As well as professional fund raisers a joint professional PR organisation is needed to avoid some of the faux that have occurred in the past.
     
  18. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    I believe you don't need to be a member to volunteer at the Ffestiniog (including the WHR), although I assume the vast majority are members of at least one or more of the supporting bodies.
     
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  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm curious how keen you are to appoint a professional PR firm. I feel it would be a waste of money, especially when the first thing they'll say is that this thread is a major problem - something you took exception to when the Plc asked members to restrict their social media usage!
     
  20. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    I am sure those who worked so hard to obtain this sum will be pleased to hear it described as such.

    IMHO, its a pretty substantial acorn, and we know what grow from acorns...

    Robin
     
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