Spa Valley and Eridge

I have read somewhere that there legally is...just in reality it would never happen, clearences are too tight and would create traffic chaos.

 

Cut the bus turning and bus stop out of the equation and I am sure it could.... Just thinking out loud here on behalf of the Spa Valley to join them up...

 

My understanding is that Sainsbury's gave an undertaking to reinstate the land if it was needed for rail use. Whether this undertaking passed to the new owners of Homebase, I don't know.


Why 34007 thinks there is a case to run into the network rail station, I don't know - given it would require running over network rail tracks to a station which does not have a bay platform if memory serves.

 

Apparently there is some kind of agreement for the railway to be reinstated but I don't know the ins and outs of this.

As for connection to the Central station, I think it could be difficult. Train paths through the station are now extremely limited as services to Tunbridge Wells is very popular. The operating company are trying to increase the lengths of their trains so to increase capacities.

Matt

 

As I've said before, no true rail enthusiast would ever stand in the way of reconnecting a railway to the National Network, nor of letting it fulfil its original purpose. If I have to dip in to my own pocket to prove my support then I wonder why I and everyone else pays income tax. I believe the capital for rail expenditure should come from an enlightened treasury, which has managed to fund some rather more speculative (and expensive) investments with even less surety of return. I believe a Railway scheme should cover its operating costs, or EBITDA to be precise. I mentioned on another forum that I wish my own Railway was lucky enough to find itself the subject of such a campaign to extend westwards to Winchester, though the obstacles are frankly greater than those that the Wealden Line have identified in Tunbridge Wells.
It is far too late for the Spa Valley to provide the kind of genuine heritage experience offered by the BLuebell (and the Kent and East SUssex come to think of it). The Mid Hants and Swanage railways barely made it , but there is only so much memorobilia and goodwill to go round. After that you have to resort to industrial saddle tanks and unrepresentative stock. IMHO the Spa Valley and Lavender Lines could become models of cooperation to mutual benefit. Passengers in Lewes get another route to London, the Spa Valley gets the chance to run to Tunbridge Wells. Don't sneer at the Wealden campaign - co-operate with it. By the way I am not in any shape or form connected with nor likeley to beneft from - the Wealden Line camapaign but I recognise it as an ally to the railway.

 

I'm not wishing to have a go here but have you yet visited our railway Domeyhead in the last couple of years?? If you have then you'll know about our Southern diesel fleet which mostly all ran on the line, especially our Thumper unit - the only 3 car Oxted unit left in preservation. You'll also know that we are not relying so heavily on industrial saddletanks. OK we haven't got Standard 4 tanks but they are as rare as rocking horse s*** for any new railway and those who have them know how valuable they are.

Still I think we still have some gems even if they're not heritage. Groombridge station in a few years, once the building works has finished and its had a chance to mature a bit, really will be quite a picturesque station IMHO. And then you have Eridge station, which on our side we are going to try and reproduce to as close a replica as in its Southern heyday. Imagine if we could convince the train operating company to repaint their side in the same colours and match us...

Even the new station at High Rocks looks as though it could have been there longer than the 10 years it has existed for now.

And how can you say the Mid Hants and the Swanage barely made it. The Swanage for me has to be one of my favourite preserved railways, purely because of what they have done with it. It really is a true representation of a country branchline, but at the same time, fulfils what is required of it. I just wish it was closer to me. Again look at Harman's Cross - you'd find it pretty difficult know that the station never existed until 20 odd years ago.

The Mid Hants even seems to be making inroads into all the little things, although I have not been there for a few years now.

Unfortunately to the outsider the Wealden Line campaign may appear as an ally to the Spa Valley and Lavender Line, but especially where the former is concerned, all the main campaigner has done is belittle the Spa Valley and dispel any of its achievements to date. Let's face it, without the Spa Valley, the WHOLE yard at Groombridge would have been built over and there wouldn't even be a corridor for trains to go through.

In the long term I think it would be good for the Spa Valley and the local area if some sort of public transport service was offered on a regular basis between Eridge and Tunbridge Wells, using a DMU. But the funding for this would have to come from an outside body and would have to work around what were the original aims of the society - to provide a heritage train ride for tourists and enthusiasts.

Matt

 

What I mean by "Barely made it" is that the Mid-Hants and Swanage railways were able to accumulate sufficient artefacts to recreate their respective railways to approximate a period in BR's history (Swanage perhaps a little earlier) but by the eighties the supply of those artefacts, not to mention steam motive power, was just about exhausted (forgive pun) and new preserved railways were still cropping up every year. I'm glad the Spa Valley has a thumper unit and I would dearly love to see it working again between Tunbridge Wells and Eridge, supplementing a class 170 commmuter service. In fact when I travel to the Spa Valley I will hope to ride on it in preference to a steam service. However I am in a minority when it comes to the general public, who are getting more discerning about their steam days out. Look at the recent farrago over Thomas Days.
(BTW there is also a "Hampshire" thumper on the Mid Hants, I'm pleased to say!) All pro-rail groups need to work together even if it means swallowing pride.

 

that is one thing, is the Spa Valley still looking at continuing with the Thomas Days out?

 

Hey you lot may knock me - But I still think the Spa Valley if they were to persue all avenues and with the tunnel adjacent to where the buses turn around could allow a single line working to T/Wells and allow a connection to the mainline - Infact I reckon alot of lines could and not spoiling much of the countryside!!!

 

it would be brill if we could do that, a mainline connection at both ends of the line

 

I cant imagine the spa valley railway would want to spend probably millions to extend their line by not even a mile it doesn't make operational sense, we would not gain anything from this mainline connection that you would not benefit from having at Eridge when all you need there are a couple of sets of points, that is not likely to cost a similar amount as knocking half of Sainsburys down laying tracks accross the car park past the pub, relocating the bus area and up to a headshunt just short of TW Central where passengers could not alight as there would be no chance of running into their station WHATS THE POINT!! when we can spend the money on far more interesting and important things. some people do start some stupid threads on this they must live on Cloud 9, perhaps you could use the time you spend thinking of these ideas more efficiently and help the railway in any way you can ](*,)

As for Eridge which this thread is about, it is coming on very quickly, trackwork is nearly completed with the addition of friction buffer stops at the end of the SVR line to follow shortly, a basic groundframe facility is going to be installed to make the bay platform accesible from the main line for the stabling of vehicles namely a water tanker at first.

 

Well said, let the dreamers dream on and leave the practical stuff the hands on brigade.

Chris W.

 

That's exactly my point 68077 - the Spa valley couldn't in a million years afford that sort of invenstment, and Chris seems to have completely forgotten what my original argument was about. If some other body is agitating for Government capital expenditure in creating a new through and diversionary route relinking two parts of the network, why would any true railway enthusiast actively oppose that? You talk about dreaming Chris - the Waverley route - 35 miles into the middle of nowhere - (alright Tweedbank then) at a cost of £150-£200m - how did they make a business case? Answer - they didn't - the rules on cost/benefit were modified by politicians. The Wealden Link are trying to get similar Government funding for what is in truth a far more compelling business case, but it happens to be in true blue heartland so there is no political leverage. That's the only difference. If you dig your heels in and oppose this you are effectively saying you think it is better to "play trains", offering journeys from nowhere to nowhere and back again rather than see a healthy and viable rail route restored to the national network. It is Government capital spending on strategic infrastructure, not private share issues that would restore the link! I can point to the new Ebbw Vale route where numbers exceeded plans by nearly 100%, as has Stirling to Alloa, and I can point to SELRAP which is a very similar campaign to Wealden Link and which has a strong coalition of all party support.
So Chris, and 68077 - there is a campaign to reopen the route to Tunbridge Wells and it has a growing coalition of political support. are you saying that is bad for railways, and would you actively oppose it?

 

I wouldn't say its a bad idea, but it all depends on what the railway officials want to do, there may not be enough resources at the time for a service like that

 

im not wasting time arguing with you 'domeyhead' they been trying to open the uckfield line for the last 40 something years so surely theres your answer to the the TW to Eridge section, we all entitle to our views and mine is that the Spa Valley Railway runs a successfull service, carrying passengers too and from local tourist attractions along the line, we dont go from nowhere to nowhere and we most certainly dont 'PLAY TRAINS' this thread is about the SVR extending to Eridge so perhaps it could get back onto that topic as it is far more interesting than hairbrained ideas of running trains back into TW Central which AINT gonna happen for quite a few years END OF SUBJECT, MATTER CLOSED, ECT!

 

Your post comes across as very defensive, and is summarised as an "I don't want it, end of story." Your reply doesn't even consider or address any of the points mentioned. How many people use the Spa valley as a transport service rather than an end in itself? The answer, is almost certainly none - so there is no clash of markets between you and Wealden Link. Each intitiative has a separate and distinct customer base. Are you a museum, a transport solution or a tourist destination? I can tell you that you will struggle to be all three and if you make the wrong choice you will never have the capital to finish all those restoration projects before the completed ones come round again.
The trouble is, playing trains is exactly what you do, and it's what you want to do but as an engineer doesn't the possibility of some other suit fighting for the capital that would secure future expansion for the Spa Valley and enable some of your more ambitious aims to succeed appeal to you? Or do you fear that you would be ejected from the site completely?
There is growing anger that a long promised change in Government attitude to capital spending on rail schemes has not materialised, but slowly, campaigns like Selrap and Wealden Link are starting to hold the Government to account. One day soon, the evaluation rules are going to change. As a rail enthusiast I for one will be mightily glad when it happens.
I'll repeat the question to see whether you will answer it this time. If there was the possibility of a railway fulfilling its original purpose and rejoining the national network would you as an apparent railway enthusiast actively oppose it?

 

1.The firm now using the station at Groombridge I'm aware have used the line for transport purposes. I'm also aware of people and friends in Eridge that are looking forward to having a connection with tunbridge wells again, and this is not for the purpose of saying "oh look isn't that steam engine lovely?" it's for the purpose of acctually getting into work or for having a viable connection once again. I also am well aware of the amount of people coming from Tunbridge wells to have lunch at high rocks. So tell me its not a transport service?

2. Please don't try and bother with a finaces arguement. If we don't have the finaces to do any of these restoration projects, how come we are basically connected up to Eridge now and have the resources to have another two locomovites in steam and avaible for use by the end of next year at the very latest? If we're going to start finaces then please would you have the pleasure to reply to my very polite pm in which I asked how you wanted the Wealden Line to operate if you could? All it seems to me is for it to be a viable the government is going to have to spend a disproportionatly large sum of money on a secondry line of little function. Of course I'd like to get to Brighton quicker sometimes but when the bus that now follows the old railway from Tunbridge wells to Brighton only costs a few pounds return(yes it does take some time) then why is it such a needed function to have a duplicate of it on rails? To me the question of who is playing trains looks a little hypocritical, I'm not sure how anyone else sees this.

3. Playing trains is something we simply don't do. I'm not sure if you've visited our line but our trains are on time and provide a regular service. If we were going to play trains we wouldn't bother offering a service to the public would we?

4. I doubt anyone would oppose a "connection" with the mainline network for perhaps mainline charters etc so where does this come into it?

5. I don't see how you can propose a set up where on weekends or otherwise we can run our trains and on other days the electrics are working? Unless you can give me an example of where this has acctually occured in the UK. And surely then you'd start campaigning for weekend trains intersperesed between out trains? There is no way this would ever occur.

6. To rebound a question at you "domeyhead" (Would be nice to know your actual name rather than hiding behind a name anyone could use), are you not supportive of the railways effort to reconnect with Eridge? I mean surely that is part of the Wealden Camapign to reconnect Lewes to Tunbridge wells? It would be nice therefore to see some kind of recognition of this, either on the weladen lines website(if you are a member) or by yourself.

Ross

PS Although I am a volunteer at Spa, this post is my views and no one elses.

 

So the Spa connects back to Eridge enabling people to hop on a train at either Uckfield or Oxted, change at Eridge for a train to TWW, like in 1985, except with a piece of track being replaced by foot, or a bus. So in effect the Spa will have reopened the link as much as they can and it will benefit alot of people. Network Rail dont have to spend a penny, in fact they make money by leasing the track and platforms to the Spa. So really why all the fuss about 2 different parties reopening the line if in effect it has the same effect to a point?

 

Sorry Ross I don't buy that at all. Preserved railways are NOT transport solutions. This is something the major "heritage" players in the eighties realised and there were some painful transitions as the blue overalls made way for the marketing men and women at the top.. The blood letting on the Mid Hants at this time made good reading on the pages of Steam Railway but it was not a nice thing to live through, yet it was a necessary though painful transition and now we put faces on the engines twice a year even if some still feel that the railway "sold out" when it did this. Yet the only route to long term survival lay in the museum direction, and then later in offering a family experience, at the expense of the rail purist. You must not fall into the trap of thinking that there is a viable number of rail users waiting to use your line as a transport option, because I'm sorry, if you start trying to cater for a transport user market you will go bust. Fortunately I'm sure the Spa leadership team are savvy enough to realise this. You cater for a leisure market, and so it doesnt matter if you go from nowhere to nowhere at 25mph so long as the experience is pleasant and family friendly. It's not an insult.
Commuters, sorry "customers" - (and think of your own preferences here)- do not like to change trains on the way to work,or travel at a sedate 25mph let alone change transport modes. Talk of substitute buses is a nonsense in commuter terms and it is the dull functional commuter market that Wealden Link is all about Are you going to run trains from 6am until midnight 7 days a week? I hope not.
Wealden Link is something else entirely, that the Spa Valley could and should not aspire to be. Weladen Link are taking on the treasury and the Government. It's dull but different. People don't take their families to see electrostars or class 170s.
You don't seem to see the difference between Wealden Link and a yourself as a heritage railway, hence you always view this debate as an "It's them or us" struggle. And I keep saying it doesn;t have to be that way.
Supposing a business case is made by Wealden Link, and The treasury under a new Government
give Network Rail the borrowing to rejoin strategic network links. What is to stop the Spa Valley becoming an Open Access operator, using a mix of its own heritage and leased and cascaded DMU stock from a ROSCO on a through track brought up to NR standards by NR track machines?
Wealden Link have no desire to be a TOC, but that doesn't mean The Spa Valley with its quota of qualified drivers couldn't aspire in that direction?
In my first post I said each party could benefit from the support of the other and I'll say it again now. Opposing and derogatory comments by either party just suggest a luddite mentality. Heritage railways will always need all the friends they can get.

from Andy aka Domeyhead.

 

Round and round it goes, everyone’s bored let’s hope it stops