Current and Proposed New-Builds

"Doctor, all these corridors look the same to me"...

 

No need to be embarrassed. 7200s didn't have copper capped chimneys.

 

I'm back. Are there any Scottish pre-grouping designs you'd like to see as a new build?

 

Yes, a Caledonian Conner 8' 2" single driver, beautiful looking machines. https://www.alamy.com/caledonian-railway-8ft-single-steam-locomotive-at-carlisle-image230007633.html

Also a rebuilt superheated McIntosh Dunalastair II or IV 4-4-0 (as oppsed to the later Pickersgill ones with much lower degree superheat), and a Highland Railway "River" would be a useful and practical locomotive https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...COMOTIVES-OF-THE-HIGHLAND-RAILWAY/i-cFQWw8d/A

Also, not a new-build, but I'd love to see this running again:


Richard.

 

If you get that caley single running again you'll be a miracle worker!

 

A 4-6-0 "cardean" class 903

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r3MAAOSw6n5Xuc44/s-l1600.jpg

Knut

 

OK how about a North British Atlantic. One was "saved" in 1937-38, as it was being dismantled. Luckily there was a spare boiler available to go back into the frames and return the engine to service. Only for the Austrian/Bohemian Corporal to invade Poland, leading to the outbreak of the Second World war and the engine being withdrawn for a second time, permanently. Being scrapped for the war effort.

 

The Pickergill Caledonian class 60 was remarkable .
When Cox tried to understand frame cracking in 39(I think) the class had worked hard for many years and had had no frame cracks.
It was about 5% more coal hungry than Prince of Waleses that had two cracks per year per locomotive.
What was the secret?

 

Enquiry: in view of what was said some time back, concerning LMS-era frame mods to ex-LNW locos, are we taking post-grouping cracking, or were the PoW class always notable offenders in this regard?

..... and sice @aron33 asked ..... you can still put me down for a HR/CR 'River' class 4-6-0. Either livery, or LMS red. I'm not fussy!

 

Scottish steel.

 

I'm just in the process of reading "William Pickersgill and the CR 956 Class 4-6-0s" by Donald Peddie, and am also cross-referencing it with "The Scottish 4-6-0s" by C.P. Atkins. Both are excellent books, particularly the first.

The answer to your question lies in the pages of these two books...
The 60 Class, as with all other Pickersgill designs, suffered from small fireboxes, fairly large, long boilers, but most importantly, very poor superheating surface as compared with previous McIntosh designs, particularly the rebuilt Dunalastairs.
McIntosh had gone in for long superheater elements, whereas Pickersgill opted for short-length elements which gave a poor percentage of the overall heating surface.
Also, the 60 class were considered poor performers when coasting, as it was suggested the cylinder bypass valves also hindered free running.
The frames on the 60 class were of pretty massive construction, and were not particularly stressed, as the locos couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding - The rebuilt Dunalastairs often putting in much more sprightly performances.
D.L. Smith in "Tales of the Glasgow and South Western in LMS Days" also refers to the 60 class as being very sluggish and heavy on coal.

Richard.

 

From Steamindex:

Atkins, P. West coast 4-6-0s at work. 1981. Chap. 10. From 4-4-2 to 4-6-2 at St Rollox.
The Pickersgill 60 class 4-6-0 is included, especially the Preston to Carlisle tests against a Prince of Wales class 4-6-0 in 1925/6. The load was 350 tons. The coal consumed was (lb/dbhp) 4.84 for the Class 60 and 5.05 for the Prince of Wales


Nearly whole class got into BR uniform.
None of the LNWR express classes did.
Most pre Chapelon steam locomotive were lousy at speed.
Class 60 were unbreakable workhorses

The Cox frame-breaking repport is from 1947 and the class 60 had NO cracks.

 

A while back, I started a thread on Pre-grouping LMS 4-6-0s as I was interested to know how good they were after borrowing a book from our local library. I learned a lot from the responses, particularly from Mr LMS2968, who is a real authority on anything LMS. The general verdict on the Caledonian engines was that they were very handsome machines (especially in that blue livery) but none of them, even the Cardeans or 60s were anything special and some (the three-cylinder locos) were downright awful. If there is a real desire for a new-build Caledonian loco, a 4-4-0 of one of the Dunalastair series would strike me as a more sensible project - same good looks as the 4-6-0s but a highly regarded class far more worthy of resurrection. After all, we're not talking about main line use and although the NRM has plenty of pre-grouping 4-4-0s, only the T9 is currently operational and there are relatively few on heritage lines.

 

I'd love to get my hands on the ner 4-4-0 in the NRM ..

 

Not if I got my hands on her first........

 

My sentiments exactly. If you can get hold of a copy of Donald Peddie's book on the 956s, it's well-worth the read.
It's meticulously researched, and also gives the background on CR design philosophy from the McIntosh Era onwards, and the retrograde steps taken by Pickersgill to change from high to low degree superheat on all subsequent CR locomotive designs, and also to alter the valve gear geometry to give inferior performance.
He did beef the frames up though, which is why the 60s never suffered with fractures, and he also provided larger axleboxes less prone to heating. But in other respects his logic seems rather odd, even considering that WW I was being fought at the time. As observed by Peddie, other CMEs, notably Gresley, were moving to high superheating as standard at that time.
Also, even the mounting of the Holcroft gear on the 956s was done in such a manner as to make hard work of a supposedly simplified arrangement the system offered... It was mounted in the vertical plane instead of horizontally (even more odd when it's considered that the cylinders were all on a common centreline), and used 15 pin joints instead of the usual 9 to achieve its operation.

The 60 class may have been a decent performer for the fitting of high superheat, but this was never carried out. As it was they were mediocre performers at best, and weren't highly regarded even by CR Enginemen. The 956s were even less well-regarded.

What I have found interesting is that although J.G. Barr had a large influence on CR Locomotive design, he seems to have been bypassed by Pickersgill for whatever reason. Maybe I'll find out why as I continue reading...

Richard.

 

When you said AG Barr had a large influence on Caley loco design, I thought for a minute it was down to the soft drinks...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.G._Barr

 

Sorry, my mistake... The error of replying when I didn't have my books in front of me!
That should read J.G. Barr

Mind you, it may explain why the frames didn't crack - They were made in Scotland from Girders...

Richard.

 

For me, a Scottish pre-grouping design would have to be a Highland Railway Drummond "Ben" 4-4-0, since we were robbed of 54398 "Ben Alder" in 1967.

 

But that's almost like a T9 but without a signal behind the chimney and a telegraph pole in the tender. I'm sure Swanage can accomodate